Ex-spouse excluded but other spouse now subletting

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    Ex-spouse excluded but other spouse now subletting

    Hi there

    On behalf of a dear friend who is in dire need.....

    My mate was excluded from his house which is jointly owned and mortgaged by his ex partner after she served him with a non-molestation order (they had a hell of a row and he shouted very loudly, enough for the courts to consider he had 'assaulted her' ! He will be unable to re-enter the house for 6 months and she will not let him back in to even retrieve his property.

    It transpires she has now moved in a lodger, if not two, and an au pair. My question is, is she legally allowed to sub-let without his permission ? he certainly hasnt signed anything, and surely if he had, he would be entitled to half the rent coming in ?

    What we suspect is happening is that she will get the lodger to directly pay the Au Pair ( it appears there are two au pairs, one male one female, but one could be another lodger, the situation is a little unclear and info is coming from the 6yr old child she sees her dad) so if challenged she can say, 'Im not charging any rent'....is this a common scam ? It seems an easy way to not have to tell the inland revenue or the mortgage company that sub letting is happening.

    Im very unclear on property law and my friend is taking legal advice but the law moves very slowly as he is trying to get legal aid. His ex has made sure he doesnt have access to his work tools therefore he is unable to work and is now signing on.

    The property is worth over £300k and I think she had this scenario planned to get her hands on it...

    Any advice would be welcomed.

    Lucy

    #2
    Hi Lucy,

    You have stated substantial amounts of money are involved in this case and professional legal advice is being sought. That is the best way forward.

    I can only throw some thoughts into this situation and your additional answers may help others to guide you.


    Originally posted by lucyly
    Hi there

    On behalf of a dear friend who is in dire need.....

    My mate was excluded from his house which is jointly owned and mortgaged by his ex partner after she served him with a non-molestation order (they had a hell of a row and he shouted very loudly, enough for the courts to consider he had 'assaulted her' ! He will be unable to re-enter the house for 6 months and she will not let him back in to even retrieve his property.

    The Court have made their decision based on the evidence that was presented to them and the judgement and conditions based on an "assault" and that judgement and conditions must be complied with.

    It transpires she has now moved in a lodger, if not two, and an au pair. My question is, is she legally allowed to sub-let without his permission ? he certainly hasnt signed anything, and surely if he had, he would be entitled to half the rent coming in ?

    What we suspect is happening is that she will get the lodger to directly pay the Au Pair ( it appears there are two au pairs, one male one female, but one could be another lodger, the situation is a little unclear and info is coming from the 6yr old child she sees her dad) so if challenged she can say, 'Im not charging any rent'....is this a common scam ? It seems an easy way to not have to tell the inland revenue or the mortgage company that sub letting is happening.

    Is the property subject of a mortgage and what are the arrangements for payment of that mortgage during the period of exclusion? What is the amount of mortgage and mortgage repayments? Is the assaulted women absent from work or is she now working? As there seems to be a six year old child involved are any maintenance payments to be made? Are they a married couple and are the mortgage and property deeds in joint names? The assaulted women might well have decided to "rent a room" and there is nothing illegal in that and there is normally no tax on "rent a room" income.

    Im very unclear on property law and my friend is taking legal advice but the law moves very slowly as he is trying to get legal aid. His ex has made sure he doesnt have access to his work tools therefore he is unable to work and is now signing on.

    Might it be possible to list the tools and property owned by your friend as ask if arrangements can be made for a third party to collect them.
    Are your friend and his partner likely to seek reconciliation at the end of the six month period. If there is to be a break up then the settlement seems more appropriate to a "divorce" law situation than for a forum dealing with landlord/tenant issues


    The property is worth over £300k and I think she had this scenario planned to get her hands on it...

    When trying to resolve a difficult situation fairly it is sometimes unhelpful to express opinions like this. The sympathy of a Court will be with a woman with a child or children who has proven she has been assaulted.

    Any advice would be welcomed.

    Lucy
    ...............
    Vic - wicked landlord
    Any advice or suggestions given in my posts are intended for guidance only and not a substitute for completing full searches on this forum, having regard to the advice of others, or seeking appropriate professional opinion.
    Without Plain English Codes of Practice and easy to complete Prescribed Forms the current law is too complex and is thus neither fair to good tenants nor good landlords.

    Comment


      #3
      helpful advice, thanks

      Hi there

      Many thanks for your advice; Agreed it is long and complicated and my friend is complying with every single aspect of the court order to the letter, however his ex partner is not. She is sending obscene materials through the post to him, harrassing him by text and phone, has threatened to take his belongings to a charity shop etc as she will not allow a him with a third party to come back to the house, even if accompanied by a police officer saying that the children would be upset...however their grandad is a serving police officer and they are well used to policeman !!

      What she is doing is obstruction and is using the law to back her case...it seems once a women has filed a complaint, the law will back her even though the history of the events surrounding the case will show two years of bullying and emotional violence from her towards my friend. But the problem is when its a man who is the victim of domestic violence the police do not treat it seriously...he tried to report it and was more or less laughed at !

      Anyway, back to the point in question as this is all irelevant...

      The house is mortgaged jointly, both names are registered on the deeds. He is still paying as much as he can towards the mortgage but as she has rendered him unable to work and is deliberately obstructing every effort made for him to retrieve his tools, there is no realistic prospect of him maintaining the payments in the long run. It is a £150,000 mortgage so The payments are high.

      The couple are not married and their cohabitation ended over a year ago, they just effectively shared the house without a relationship.

      Reconcilliation is not an option, would you return to a partner who has bullied, tormented, hacked your emails, doesnt come home till the early hours several nights a weeks, copys your phone bills, deprived you of earning a living etc ? financially he would have been better of staying in this abusive relationship...

      When trying to resolve a difficult situation fairly it is sometimes unhelpful to express opinions like this. The sympathy of a Court will be with a woman with a child or children who has proven she has been assaulted.

      The sympathy of the court may well be with the woman and I understand that as a woman myself, however the mother was never at home. My friend was the main childcarer for 6 years whilst his partner worked full time but most nights didnt come home until 9pm and sometimes after midnight on a regular basis...in fact she rarely saw the kids.

      Now their is a property at stake, a different side is being presented to make it look as if she is a victim when the opposite is true sadly.

      As I said, my mate is taking responsibility for his actions, but as he legally owns half this property so much is being done without his knowledge its seems very unfair. If there was nothing to hide why not at least let him know through solicitors...

      The Irony is that the only ones that will benefit from all this are the solicitors...they can probably both kiss goodbye to a substantial proportion of the equity...

      But thanks for your advice, its all helpful but I fear only a court case can solve it.

      Kind regards

      Lucy

      Comment


        #4
        I think, sadly, you are right, a Court case will be the only way!

        However, your friends solicitor could suggest mediation to the other side to avoid a Court case. Often , if this is suggested and one party refuses, the Courts tend to frown upon the party who refused without good reason.

        e.g. If mediation can be suggested purely to come to an agreement for him to get his work tools back and she refuses without good cause, the Courts will frown upon her - not him ..if you take my drift.

        The more reasonable you are, the less reasonable the other party appears to be.

        So make a list of all options available in splitting the house, getting his work tools back etc that are extremely fair to both sides (if anything weighting a little on her side) and get his solicitor to put these in writing to the other side. If she refuses them all out of hand, without good cause, the judge is bound to take this into account. The Court system is already overloaded and judges don't take kindly to their time being wasted when it could easily have been settled out of court.

        Send a letter to her by recorded delivery, suggesting that a third party will come on their own without him being present(preferably 2 x female -one to go to the door and the other to remain on the roadside as wtiness) so she can't say she feels threatened, and agree a check list of items to be collected. As they were not married, any goods still in the house that belong to him and cannot be classed as a gift to her, remains his and if she gets rid of them she could find herself legally responsible for reimbursing the loss. i.e. he could consider taking her to the small claims court for financial redress for his tools including loss of earnings.... and if she had peviously turned down a reasonable offer for a thrid party to collect the goods, the Court is likely to find in his favour REGARDLESS of the domestic situation - remember, it is not a Family Court !!!

        It rather depends on how they are registered on the Title Deeds, whether as Joint tenants or Tenants in Common but I would hazard a guess and say that they are joint tenants - either way they remain jointly and severally liable - in other words if the mortgage gets into arrears they are both liable and can be sued jointly and separately for the arrears. The difference between the two means that in Joint Tenants if either party dies their share automatically reverts to the other whereas with Tenants in Common, on death, their share goes automatically goes to their "estate". If they are Joint Tenants, he needs to make a will so that his "share" goes to his estate.

        It wouldn't be in her interest to get into arrerars because she is just as liable as he is.

        I believe that most mortgage lenders (but I could stand to be corrected) have to be advised of any non-family person living in the premises, whether paying or not .....

        Personally, I would advise the Mortgage Lender of the situation, WITHOUT going in to the moral rights or wrongs, of anything that is being done or may occur, that would affect the mortgage in any way and that your friend, whilst doing his utmost, is unable to control the situation.

        Keep the texts if possible, or at least get them recorded as seen by a police officer (get a crime report number) or solicitor. They may not be able (or willing) to do anything but they can be called as witnesses to having seen the harrassing and threatening content ...

        So, bearing in mind the domestic situation and resolving the mortgage/property problem, will probably end up in Court, your friend must now go through the damage limitation route - i.e. he has to be seen as being as totally reasonable and fair within the circumstances.

        Make sure that any communication with her is by recorded delivery - certainly not verbal or by text and that all communication with anyone that may have an interest i.e. mortgage lender etc. is also recorded delivery.

        Hope this helps ....


        Originally posted by lucyly
        Hi there

        Many thanks for your advice; Agreed it is long and complicated and my friend is complying with every single aspect of the court order to the letter, however his ex partner is not. She is sending obscene materials through the post to him, harrassing him by text and phone, has threatened to take his belongings to a charity shop etc as she will not allow a him with a third party to come back to the house, even if accompanied by a police officer saying that the children would be upset...however their grandad is a serving police officer and they are well used to policeman !!

        What she is doing is obstruction and is using the law to back her case...it seems once a women has filed a complaint, the law will back her even though the history of the events surrounding the case will show two years of bullying and emotional violence from her towards my friend. But the problem is when its a man who is the victim of domestic violence the police do not treat it seriously...he tried to report it and was more or less laughed at !

        Anyway, back to the point in question as this is all irelevant...

        The house is mortgaged jointly, both names are registered on the deeds. He is still paying as much as he can towards the mortgage but as she has rendered him unable to work and is deliberately obstructing every effort made for him to retrieve his tools, there is no realistic prospect of him maintaining the payments in the long run. It is a £150,000 mortgage so The payments are high.

        The couple are not married and their cohabitation ended over a year ago, they just effectively shared the house without a relationship.

        Reconcilliation is not an option, would you return to a partner who has bullied, tormented, hacked your emails, doesnt come home till the early hours several nights a weeks, copys your phone bills, deprived you of earning a living etc ? financially he would have been better of staying in this abusive relationship...

        When trying to resolve a difficult situation fairly it is sometimes unhelpful to express opinions like this. The sympathy of a Court will be with a woman with a child or children who has proven she has been assaulted.

        The sympathy of the court may well be with the woman and I understand that as a woman myself, however the mother was never at home. My friend was the main childcarer for 6 years whilst his partner worked full time but most nights didnt come home until 9pm and sometimes after midnight on a regular basis...in fact she rarely saw the kids.

        Now their is a property at stake, a different side is being presented to make it look as if she is a victim when the opposite is true sadly.

        As I said, my mate is taking responsibility for his actions, but as he legally owns half this property so much is being done without his knowledge its seems very unfair. If there was nothing to hide why not at least let him know through solicitors...

        The Irony is that the only ones that will benefit from all this are the solicitors...they can probably both kiss goodbye to a substantial proportion of the equity...

        But thanks for your advice, its all helpful but I fear only a court case can solve it.

        Kind regards

        Lucy
        Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

        Comment


          #5
          Hi there

          This is all very helpful indeed, certainly didnt consider the recorded delivery option as this might save on solicitors bills. The only thing she might say is this is direct contact and he is banned from contacting her in any way...its sad but he did want to go down the mediation route but she would not and it was her choice to go straight to a solicitor when her bullying tactics didnt get him out the first time. He walked straight into a trap and is now reaping the consequences.

          Im going to screen print your reply and send it to him, its been most helpful and I hope for all their sakes they can resolve it although Its not going to be amicable or cheap but there are two children involved who deserve to thought about.

          Kind regards

          Lucy

          Comment


            #6
            Are teh children his ?? If so this makes it all the more complicated and sad ...

            I would not have thought that sending a letter would be considered as unreasonable or against the Court Order as it obviously doesn't represent a threat to her in any way - but to save any doubt, send it in your name saying that you are acting as his agent and with his permisssion - that will head her off at the pass !! Not a thing she can about that !!!

            Originally posted by lucyly
            Hi there

            This is all very helpful indeed, certainly didnt consider the recorded delivery option as this might save on solicitors bills. The only thing she might say is this is direct contact and he is banned from contacting her in any way...its sad but he did want to go down the mediation route but she would not and it was her choice to go straight to a solicitor when her bullying tactics didnt get him out the first time. He walked straight into a trap and is now reaping the consequences.

            Im going to screen print your reply and send it to him, its been most helpful and I hope for all their sakes they can resolve it although Its not going to be amicable or cheap but there are two children involved who deserve to thought about.

            Kind regards

            Lucy
            Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

            Comment


              #7
              Hiya

              Yes both his children, little ones too and they miss their dad.

              Good suggestion about me acting as his agent, only she hates my guts as I run a business with my friend and she is resentful of that too...whichever way the poor sod turns it seems she can obstruct...or indeed demand when it suits her.

              Latest twist is she is threatening to take all his stuff to a charity shop if its not collected by Wednesday but when it was pointed out to her by a policeman that a tort would need to be issued and she would be breaking the law she kind of changed her tune a bit and said she only needed to know when he would be collecting his stuff by wednesday. This is what she is like, moving the goal posts when it suits her. What she forgets is he tried on 3 occaisons, obtaining a police escort which you cant book, you just have to turn up at the station and hope someone is available, booked a van, only to be told, sorry its not convenient its half term !!!! The women is a complete terrorist.

              The property issue though is a minefield, so many pieces of information, and all are different. Some say the courts divide 50/50 others say its about who contributes more so its based on a percentage....its a total nightmare.

              But your advice is most welcome...he is very grateful. He is seeing another solicitor tomorrow, someone I know who is red hot on this sort of stuff so maybe she can help move it along a bit.

              Lucy

              Comment


                #8
                Sounds like a case of maliscious mother sydrome - a recognised physchological sydrome - look it up on the web - I'm sure you'll find it very interesting reading indeed !!!!!!!!!!

                Ok splitting property. Purely my understanding, of course, I may be wrong but I don't think so. There is no such thing as a common law marriage. No rights of ownership accrue simply by virute of living together. What he can prove he paid for is his and what she paid for is hers. Anything that was given as a gift remains the property of the recipient. Anything that was paid for jointly goes into a "pool" and usually one item is traded off against another of similar value ...

                How the joint home is divided as there are children involved is likley to prove difficult for your friend as the children need a home and his parental responsibility automatically means he has to support them and provide a home for them. This is where the solicitor will be able to advise.

                Your friend (or you or his solicitor) needs to write to her asking her to state in writing a convenient date for collection. I think some solicitors can offer the facility of an independent person collecting goods.. get him to ask that question. it may cost but once he has his tools back he'll be able to work again ...

                Originally posted by lucyly
                Hiya

                Yes both his children, little ones too and they miss their dad.

                Good suggestion about me acting as his agent, only she hates my guts as I run a business with my friend and she is resentful of that too...whichever way the poor sod turns it seems she can obstruct...or indeed demand when it suits her.

                Latest twist is she is threatening to take all his stuff to a charity shop if its not collected by Wednesday but when it was pointed out to her by a policeman that a tort would need to be issued and she would be breaking the law she kind of changed her tune a bit and said she only needed to know when he would be collecting his stuff by wednesday. This is what she is like, moving the goal posts when it suits her. What she forgets is he tried on 3 occaisons, obtaining a police escort which you cant book, you just have to turn up at the station and hope someone is available, booked a van, only to be told, sorry its not convenient its half term !!!! The women is a complete terrorist.

                The property issue though is a minefield, so many pieces of information, and all are different. Some say the courts divide 50/50 others say its about who contributes more so its based on a percentage....its a total nightmare.

                But your advice is most welcome...he is very grateful. He is seeing another solicitor tomorrow, someone I know who is red hot on this sort of stuff so maybe she can help move it along a bit.

                Lucy
                Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hi Pippay

                  Yes the property division thing seemed to be clear cut, only her solicitor is telling her she can keep anything she gifted to him...so she has decided she will keep his PC as she bought it as a present, although he put new hard drives in it, and then proceeded to move it out of the house because it contains all his teaching files, and accounts. When he reported it to the police as theft, they said ' Sorry not our problem, as its domestic its a civil matter'...solicitor says, no its theft, tell the police....and so it goes on...

                  As all his business is contained on pc, and the rest of his work tools are in the house, he is unable to work to maintain the mortgage and make sure the children are properly housed and maintained, as much as he would like to and has done so for since they were born.

                  The sad fact is she forced him into this situation and as much as the solicitor points out to her she is being unreasonable, she just does it anyway , stuff the consequences because there dont seem to be any and really there is nothing that can be done to stop her.

                  Im just as gobsmacked as anyone else when I hear the next installment about how she deliberately goes against the court undertakings, because she is perceived to be the victim she is getting away with blue murder. I would have said all the same things as you about the gifts of property and who owns what, but the way this is going you couldnt make up...its farcical beyond belief.

                  Its a very well planned and worked out scenario that at the moment not a single person, be it solicitor, police officer or mediator can challenge.

                  I will let you know how things stand tomorrow after the new solicitor is engaged.

                  Lucy

                  Comment


                    #10
                    why not send me a personal message on here as the thread isn't really suitable for the forum its in now ...
                    Any information or opinion given in this post is based only on my personal experience, what I have learned from this, other boards and elsewhere. It is not to be relied on. Definitive advice is only available from a Solicitor or other appropriately qualified person. E&OE

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Lucy I do not know if you know how to access the Private message function, if not let me know on here and I will email you a message I have sent you regarding your friend and his issues.
                      GOVERNMENT HEALTH WARNING: I am a woman and am therefore prone to episodes of PMT... if you don't like what I have to say you can jolly well put it in your pipe and SMOKE IT!!

                      Oh and on a serious note... I am NOT a Legal person and therefore anything I post could be complete and utter drivel... but its what I have learned in the University called Life!

                      Comment

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