Lost tenancy agreement

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  • Lost tenancy agreement

    Original AST signed by Mr A & Mr B - Mr A vacated leaving Mr B to continue tenancy. Some months later Mr B moves new partner in. Went to sign new tenancy agreement but Mr B has refused. We wish to give notice but cant find original agreement so unsure of tenancy date. Bit of a nightmare not sure what to do. Any help would be great.

  • #2
    Do you have a feeling in your bones as to whether the fixed term has expired yet or not?
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Gem233 View Post
      Original AST signed by Mr A & Mr B - Mr A vacated leaving Mr B to continue tenancy. Some months later Mr B moves new partner in. Went to sign new tenancy agreement but Mr B has refused. We wish to give notice but cant find original agreement so unsure of tenancy date. Bit of a nightmare not sure what to do. Any help would be great.
      Losing the Counterpart AST is hardly helpful to your case.
      It's you who seek to assert your rights; so it's you who need to prove the facts. If you can't do the latter, you can't do the former.
      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
        Do you have a feeling in your bones as to whether the fixed term has expired yet or not?
        Yes it has expired

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gem233 View Post
          Original AST signed by Mr A & Mr B - Mr A vacated leaving Mr B to continue tenancy. Some months later Mr B moves new partner in. Went to sign new tenancy agreement but Mr B has refused. We wish to give notice but cant find original agreement so unsure of tenancy date. Bit of a nightmare not sure what to do. Any help would be great.
          1. Do you remember the year the AST began?
          2. And how long the fixed term was/is? (6 months or a year perhaps)
          3. And do you know the day rent is technically due, e.g. 15th of the month? (If so, do you recall whether that same day of the month was the day the fixed term began/T moved in)?
          4. Did AST begin after 6th April 2007, & if so, did T pay a deposit and did you protect it? If yes, deposit scheme will have a record of tenancy dates. (If T paid a deposit and you didn't protect it, you can't serve notice until you do so).
          5. Did you find T via an agent as they might have records?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by westminster View Post
            1. Do you remember the year the AST began?
            2. And how long the fixed term was/is? (6 months or a year perhaps)
            3. And do you know the day rent is technically due, e.g. 15th of the month? (If so, do you recall whether that same day of the month was the day the fixed term began/T moved in)?
            4. Did AST begin after 6th April 2007, & if so, did T pay a deposit and did you protect it? If yes, deposit scheme will have a record of tenancy dates. (If T paid a deposit and you didn't protect it, you can't serve notice until you do so).
            5. Did you find T via an agent as they might have records?
            It began March 2006 for 6 months. I have just checked bank account and first payment went in 23rd March 06. Tenancy not renewed so deposit not protected. No agent used. Think tenancy date was either 23rd or 24th March? Thanks for your help

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            • #7
              Okay, you need to serve a s.21(4)(a) notice.

              Assuming the rent is due monthly, the notice must give T at least two months and also expire at the end of a rental period (but in fact you can end it on either the first or last day of a period).

              Example A: fixed term began 23rd March 2006 and expired 22nd September. The periods would run 23rd - 22nd of the month.

              Example B: fixed term began 24th March 2006 and expired 23rd September.
              The periods would run 24th - 23rd of the month.

              The 23rd is in both examples. So I'd try using that date, i.e. the notice should seek possession after 23rd [month]. If you served notice today, for example, then the notice should seek possession after 23rd May 2010....

              ...And then add the following phrase, to be on the safe side: "...or, if later, the date on which a complete period of the tenancy expires next after two months from the date of this Notice".

              (P.S. If T doesn't move out by 23rd May, I'm not sure at what point it would be advisable to apply for a possession order... I'm assuming T may still have a copy of the TA and may resist having to leave).

              (P.P.S. Keep copy notice and send notice first class with a free certificate of posting - essential to prove delivery. To be double sure, send two identical copies from two different post offices, and get two certificate of posting).
              Last edited by westminster; 02-03-2010, 11:46 AM. Reason: adding postscripts

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              • #8
                Your a star.. Thanks very much - Big help

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by westminster View Post
                  Okay, you need to serve a s.21(4)(a) notice.

                  Assuming the rent is due monthly, the notice must give T at least two months and also expire at the end of a rental period (but in fact you can end it on either the first or last day of a period).

                  Example A: fixed term began 23rd March 2006 and expired 22nd September. The periods would run 23rd - 22nd of the month.

                  Example B: fixed term began 24th March 2006 and expired 23rd September.
                  The periods would run 24th - 23rd of the month.

                  The 23rd is in both examples. So I'd try using that date, i.e. the notice should seek possession after 23rd [month]. If you served notice today, for example, then the notice should seek possession after 23rd May 2010....

                  ...And then add the following phrase, to be on the safe side: "...or, if later, the date on which a complete period of the tenancy expires next after two months from the date of this Notice".

                  (P.S. If T doesn't move out by 23rd May, I'm not sure at what point it would be advisable to apply for a possession order... I'm assuming T may still have a copy of the TA and may resist having to leave).

                  (P.P.S. Keep copy notice and send notice first class with a free certificate of posting - essential to prove delivery. To be double sure, send two identical copies from two different post offices, and get two certificate of posting).
                  Should I put Mr A & Mr B on the notice even though Mr A vacated some months ago?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gem233 View Post
                    Should I put Mr A & Mr B on the notice even though Mr A vacated some months ago?
                    Did Mr B give you a deposit. as he moved in?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gem233 View Post
                      Should I put Mr A & Mr B on the notice even though Mr A vacated some months ago?
                      'Vacating' is irrelevant. If A and B are still joint tenants, Notices need to be addressed to both. Did A leave before/at fixed term expiry or thereafter?
                      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SALL View Post
                        Did Mr B give you a deposit. as he moved in?
                        A deposit of £500 was taken on day of key hand over. When Mr A left landlord gave Mr A his half back £250.00. So only deposit of £250.00 remains which is Mr B's. Nothing to state this in wrtiting as only original tenancy ever signed. Bit of a mess I know - not my doing I might add -Thanks

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gem233 View Post
                          Should I put Mr A & Mr B on the notice even though Mr A vacated some months ago?
                          Assuming Mr A was still living there after September 2006 (i.e. he did not leave before the end of the fixed term), then yes, put both names on the notice as they are both still legally 'the Tenant'.

                          BTW, you don't have to track down Mr A to serve notice at his new address; you only have to serve the notice at the rental property address, addressed to both tenants.

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                          • #14
                            I will issue a section 21 to Mr A & Mr B. As Mr B moved his new partner in some months ago will this change anything? Should I issue anything to the new partner?

                            Thank for all your help

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