Owner's relative occupies flat without permission- rights?

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    #61
    Qwerty, as promised, I have asked around. The status of the occupier appears to be that of a 'tenant at will' (which is neither a squatter nor a 'proper' tenant).

    To evict (without risk of accusations of illegal eviction) you must first give 'reasonable' notice to quit, written but in no special/official format.

    (If you've already sent letters to this effect, and have proof of posting and copy letters, then this is probably sufficient. If not, write giving notice, keep a copy and get a *free* certificate of posting. Twenty-eight days' notice is probably enough to be 'reasonable').

    Second, you must apply for possession under Civil Procedure Rule 55, i.e. use form N5 and tick 'other' under grounds for possession. I am now guessing, but where it asks you to specify what the 'other' ground is, I'd say that the occupier is a tenant at will and you now require possession (if anyone else has a better suggestion, please say so!)

    I also have confirmation that the forged agreement has no relevance (no surprises there). If your brother-in-law tries to use it as a defence, your response is that it is a forged document, and you put him to strict proof of his allegation.

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      #62
      If you are going to try any form of court process or legal procedure to deal with this issue you may wish to make sure that you cannot be caught out either NOT having done something you should have done or conversely not found to HAVE done something that you should not have done? Put simply, make sure you are legal and squeaky clean.

      You stated in post 8 that you were exempt council tax and this situation came to light as a result of that ending? So your relative was in the property, living there while you were council tax exempt? On what you say here you appear to have been fraudulently claiming exemption from council tax or at least fraudulently benefiting from council tax exemption. If, those are the facts, you may have committed a criminal offence. I would sort all these little minor issues out before I was going to take legal action against someone.

      pm
      Before acting on forum advice, you may wish to consult an expert, someone who has all the relevant facts, and who accepts liability for their advice.

      Comment


        #63
        As in many family situations, the position here is not clear cut. I think the question that needs to be asked is: was there an intention to enter into legal relations? From the information we have the answer seems to be "no" and that means there is no tenancy of any type. It seems likely therefore that the occupier is, or was initially, a licensee. If the licence has been withdrawn he is now a trespasser. In that respect I repeat what I said earlier:

        The only time you can eject a trespasser without a court order is when you are resident in the property. So, if you come home from the shops, or even holiday, and find someone on the sofa you can eject him using reasonable force. Your relative is not in that situation and so you need a court order. In any event there has to be doubt as to whether he is a trespasser since you gave him a key. As has been said, family situations can be difficult to assess legally as it can depend on whether there was ever an intention to enter into legal relations. Do not waste time involving the police. They will tell you it is a civil matter and they will be right.
        It is therefore unwise to take direct action.

        I think the OP is in serious danger of shooting herself in the foot if she goes it alone. Whilst I am all in favour of legal DIY in suitable cases, this is not a suitable case. It needs to be handled by a landlord and tenant specialist solicitor. If it gets to court there is the risk that the occupier may be a plausible witness and it will need a skilled advocate to tie him in knots to undermine his case. The OP may balk at the cost, but the cost needs to be weighed up against the loss of income and the cost of getting it wrong.

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          #64
          Wholeheartedly agree with lawcruncher's advice to pay a specialist solicitor to deal with this.

          To clarify, my most recent comment was based on the latest information given by qwerty who told me in a PM that
          Originally posted by qwerty89
          he did'nt enter without our consent, indeed we let him store stuff there and then let him stay for a little while until he could find somewhere else. This then blurs into allowing him more and more time
          The difficulty all along has been the fact that there are several different versions of what happened, (not including the brother-in-law's). For example, we were initially told, in post #1

          Originally posted by qwerty89 View Post
          There was no verbal agreement for him to stay, he was just storing his stuff there while away on a long trip. He just moved in on his return as we had given him the keys to get his stuff.

          Comment


            #65
            I agree with Lawcruncher, the situation is not clear cut. But, I don't think this has as much to do with the fact that the issue is between family members, it is more to do with the fact that the OP has been less than completely honest about the situation.

            This will be a big concern for anyone instructed to deal with them, can they be relied on to tell the truth in preparing the case and giving evidence in court if it comes to that? I would not be suprised if at some point OP has received some rent from the T? The details of the agreement that was allegedly a forged TA has not been divulged here despite being asked about repeatedly.

            Qwerty89, if you employ any legal representation you will have to be completely honest with them from the start, or it will end up costing you more, that is if they continue with you as a client. Getting caught out not telling the truth, or apparently misleading a court will damage your credibility in proceedings.

            pm
            Before acting on forum advice, you may wish to consult an expert, someone who has all the relevant facts, and who accepts liability for their advice.

            Comment


              #66
              Thanks for your advice

              I appreciate all your advice everyone, This is out of my league to diy as I have never even had to do a straighforward eviction before.

              I will start looking for a specialist, if you can recommend anyone that would be great.

              Will keep you posted to outcomes as they happen....

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by property mongrel View Post

                I would not be suprised if at some point OP has received some rent from the T? The details of the agreement that was allegedly a forged TA has not been divulged here despite being asked about repeatedly.



                pm
                We have never received rent from him, nor asked for any. only my signature was forged on the agreement, but my husband has signed it. we have a crime reference number and the Police Officers who witnessed the agreement back in March 2010 can confirm that.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Good News - the nightmare is over!!

                  Dear All, as promised I am keeping you informed of progress.....

                  I went to court on my own this morning and got a possession order!! he has to leave in 14 days otherwise I can instruct bailiffs!!

                  I could'nt afford a legal rep so did it on my own under tresspasser and "other" and used the forged agreement as evidence.

                  He did'nt turn up to defend, so the judge was very nice and gave me possession!!

                  Thank-you all for steering me in the right direction as otherwise this could have turned ugly

                  Going to work now, will read your replies in the evening.....

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Well done! Of course, you still have to obtain vacant possession...
                    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                      Well done! Of course, you still have to obtain vacant possession...
                      Thanks Jeffrey,

                      I have a feeling he won't go quietly so I will have to instruct bailiffs.... we're looking at approx another 6 to 8 weeks...

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by qwerty89 View Post
                        I could'nt afford a legal rep so did it on my own under tresspasser and "other" and used the forged agreement as evidence.
                        Wow, well done, qwerty!

                        Can I ask, did you use form N5 and tick the 'other' box under 'grounds for possession' or did you use the alternative form specifically for squatters?

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by westminster View Post
                          Wow, well done, qwerty!

                          Can I ask, did you use form N5 and tick the 'other' box under 'grounds for possession' or did you use the alternative form specifically for squatters?
                          Hi Westminster,
                          I used form N5 and ticked "trespasser" and "other" (forged document used), and completed form N121 particulars of claim.

                          I gave in all my evidence and notices and correspondence etc with the claim on 28th May, and had a hearing date sent to me on the 3rd of June for the 7th of June! I was very surprised at the speed of the hearing date as I had been expecting a six week wait, judging by comments on this forum...

                          Comment


                            #73
                            more advice needed please

                            dear learned members,

                            you will be pleased to know that I have an eviction date of 10th August. I am wondering whether I should send the evictee a notice to remove his belongings now so that I don't waste more time after the eviction waiting for him to remove it?

                            How much time can i give him if I send the notice this week? Can I ask for same day as eviction?

                            thanks for your help

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Well done qwerty89, I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

                              pm
                              Before acting on forum advice, you may wish to consult an expert, someone who has all the relevant facts, and who accepts liability for their advice.

                              Comment

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