LTA 1985 s.1/s.2 Notices- L's identity

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    #16
    Hi

    I had a similar problem with a slightly different piece of legislation a few years ago. As I understand it, the local authority is responsible for enforcing this legislation. You cant force them to prosecute but again, you can require them to consider the matter and to make a decision. So, if I were you I would make a formal complaint to the local authority as soon as possible about their failure to fully consider the matter. Make sure its a formal complaint, so you can then follow through their complaints procedure which will, usually, mean it is dealt with a committee or sub committee of the council eventually.

    Keep the agent informed of all you are doing - including that the likely outcome that their failure to provide very basic information will be considered by the local authority.

    Are they a member of a professional body? ARMA or ARLA are the most common - lodge a formal complaint with them too.

    Youl could also apply to a county court for an order for specific performance. There will be a fee, but its not huge and the forms will be fairly easy to fill in. As a layperson, you wont be expected to get all the legal technicalities right in your explanation of your case, a general explanation will be sufficient.

    Again, tell the agent.

    Finally, I am sure it is possible, as others have suggested, that you can also launch a private criminal prosecution, but unfortunately I have no direct experience of this so dont know how easy or difficult it is.

    But again, tell the agent that you will do that next.

    I appreciate you may not want to do any of this if you dont want to upset the agent further, but from what you have said you are abit past this point?

    Good luck

    Preston

    Comment


      #17
      Thanks jeffery

      We have the same problem with the Local Authority in this area but more recently have had success after following through with a complaint and refferal to Local Government Ombusman. It was actually dealt with by a collegue but it has been confirmed from every corner that it is something a Local Authority should be assisting tenants to enforce.... can't tell you Act/Code of Guidence as I don't remember.
      Always double check advice... not just mine!

      Comment


        #18
        LTA 1985 s.1- does it still apply to tenant who's left?

        I can't seem to find out if LTA 1985 section 1 applies after tenant has left and hoping someone here can help me please!

        Tenant been in the property for a few years and lives with learning disabilities and paid a deposit at the begining of tenancy which has been handled via a LA.

        The tenant has now left the property and the LA claims they took over the tenancy after it was started by the landlord and do not have the deposit money but refuse to provide details of the landlord and state that the LTA 1985 no longer applies as tenant is no longer a tenant.

        The tenant does not have copy of written AST so not known what the adress of the landlord was written as on there.

        Can anyone confirm if tenant can still request details of LL under the LTA 1985??

        Thanks
        Always double check advice... not just mine!

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Impartial Advice View Post
          I can't seem to find out if LTA 1985 section 1 applies after tenant has left and hoping someone here can help me please!

          Tenant been in the property for a few years and lives with learning disabilities and paid a deposit at the begining of tenancy which has been handled via a LA.

          The tenant has now left the property and the LA claims they took over the tenancy after it was started by the landlord and do not have the deposit money but refuse to provide details of the landlord and state that the LTA 1985 no longer applies as tenant is no longer a tenant.

          The tenant does not have copy of written AST so not known what the adress of the landlord was written as on there.

          Can anyone confirm if tenant can still request details of LL under the LTA 1985?
          Section 1 relates to "the tenant of premises...[who] makes a written request..." If the person requesting is no longer T, no such request is possible. However, he/she can still ascertain who is L: use LR Online and, for £3, obtain a copy of a specified registered title's contents.
          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Impartial Advice View Post
            Can anyone confirm if tenant can still request details of LL under the LTA 1985??
            I do not know if the point has ever been decided; it arises in other contexts such as whether or not a former tenant can claim compensation if a landlord has not protected a deposit.

            A strict interpretation of the statute would seem to suggest that the agent is correct. However, I think it is legitimate to look at the mischief the section is trying to prevent. That mischief is that a landlord may hide behind his agent to prevent notices being served on him. The "tenant" is in the position that he needs to know the name and address of the landlord to recover his deposit and that is a matter arising out of the tenancy. It is not unreasonable to argue that in this (and any similar) case "tenant" must include "former tenant".

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
              It is not unreasonable to argue that in this (and any similar) case "tenant" must include "former tenant".
              If that had been meant, it would have said so. Compare with:
              a. section 3A which uses "new landlord" when appropriate; and
              b. section 14, which uses "former tenant" when appropriate.
              How could the right survive a person's cessation of tenantship?
              Exception: if he/she served Notice whilst still T, but L had not replied at point when tenantship ceased.
              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

              Comment


                #22
                Thanks very much for clearing that up for me.

                Will be following the LR route and hopefully will be able to get some success.

                Jeffery you are my new role model... you've replaced Steve Coogan
                Always double check advice... not just mine!

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Impartial Advice View Post
                  Thanks very much for clearing that up for me.

                  Will be following the LR route and hopefully will be able to get some success.

                  JeffREy you are my new role model... you've replaced Steve Coogan
                  Knowing me...aha!
                  JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                  1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                  2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                  3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                  4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                  Comment


                    #24
                    In sections 3 and 3A it is essential for the purposes of the sections to distinguish between "landlord" and "new landlord". In section 14 the definitions apply only to that section and in fact the definition is "former tenant still in possession" so the context is quite different.

                    I fully agree that in some cases the wording can be significant. I cite section 20 (2) (c) of the Housing Act 1988 which refers to "the person who is to be the landlord" and to section 38 (4) (a) which refers to "the persons who will be the landlord and the tenant".

                    The problem is that in many contexts, and mainly for convenience, the words "landlord" and "tenant" are used loosely to include both "intended landlord/tenant" and "former landlord/tenant". We tend only to specify "existing" "former" "new" "intended" etc landlord or tenant when the immediate context requires it.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                      In sections 3 and 3A it is essential for the purposes of the sections to distinguish between "landlord" and "new landlord". In section 14 the definitions apply only to that section and in fact the definition is "former tenant still in possession" so the context is quite different.

                      I fully agree that in some cases the wording can be significant. I cite section 20 (2) (c) of the Housing Act 1988 which refers to "the person who is to be the landlord" and to section 38 (4) (a) which refers to "the persons who will be the landlord and the tenant".

                      The problem is that in many contexts, and mainly for convenience, the words "landlord" and "tenant" are used loosely to include both "intended landlord/tenant" and "former landlord/tenant". We tend only to specify "existing" "former" "new" "intended" etc landlord or tenant when the immediate context requires it.

                      Thanks Lawcruncher

                      Would agree that the whole point of the legislation should be to stop the landlord ducking his responsibilities by hiding behind the LA. It is one of my little frustrations that enforcing this via the court is likely to be out of the capabilities of myself and local solicitors and certainly out of reach of the former tenant and their budget.
                      Always double check advice... not just mine!

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                        In sections 3 and 3A it is essential for the purposes of the sections to distinguish between "landlord" and "new landlord". In section 14 the definitions apply only to that section and in fact the definition is "former tenant still in possession" so the context is quite different.

                        I fully agree that in some cases the wording can be significant. I cite section 20 (2) (c) of the Housing Act 1988 which refers to "the person who is to be the landlord" and to section 38 (4) (a) which refers to "the persons who will be the landlord and the tenant".

                        The problem is that in many contexts, and mainly for convenience, the words "landlord" and "tenant" are used loosely to include both "intended landlord/tenant" and "former landlord/tenant". We tend only to specify "existing" "former" "new" "intended" etc landlord or tenant when the immediate context requires it.
                        All true, but explicit wording would be needed were "tenant" to mean something other than "whoever now holds the tenancy".
                        JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                        1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                        2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                        3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                        4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Some suggestions:

                          1. Write to the agent formally requesting the landlord's name and address. Tell them that the advice you have received is that Section 1 of the Act must be taken to apply to former tenants.

                          2. Write a second letter to the landlord formally requesting the return of the deposit and reminding them of their duty to pass the request to their client.

                          3. Write a third letter to the agent informing them that in absence of evidence to the contrary, you will assume that they received the deposit and are holding it as stakeholder and will proceed against them if the deposit is not refunded by the landlord. Tell them that if they supply a copy of the tenancy agreement showing to whom the deposit was paid and the basis on which it was held this may be evidence to the contrary.

                          All the above is a bit of bluff, but may work.

                          In the meantime:

                          4. Download the landlord's title at HM Land Registry. This will give the landlord's name and an address for the landlord. If the address is the property let you will not be a lot further forward (but see further below), but at least you will have the landlord's name and can do some research in trying to discover his whereabouts. If the landlord is a company you can easily discover its registered office and write there.

                          5. Pop along to the property and see if it has been relet. If it has, knock on the door and ask the tenant if he can give the information you require.

                          6. You say the tenant has learning difficulties. Was the tenancy arranged with the help of a friend or agency? If so, they may have a record of who the deposit was paid to.

                          When it comes to the service of notices the law will almost always find a way for the notice to be served. I would suggest (and I stand to be corrected by anyone regularly involved in the service of notices) that in this case service on the landlord at the property will be good service. When it comes to the service of notices in proceedings see here: http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/proc...06.htm#IDAGKIR

                          Comment


                            #28
                            thanks lawcruncher

                            The bluff was actually my first thought and will be following that and the LR route up. The tenant, as far as I can deduce from limited information, did have someone helping them who is no longer around. Have copied the helpful list you made and will use it as my checklist Thanks again
                            Always double check advice... not just mine!

                            Comment


                              #29
                              There are some good lawyers in Lincolnshire by the way - and also some mediocre ones.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                If you know any good ones who will accept Legal Aid in the North east (Grimsby etc) I'd be thrilled to know..... bearing in mind I work for a charity and do my best to help the 'socially excluded' who can be a little difficult to engage with!
                                Always double check advice... not just mine!

                                Comment

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