Rolling contracts, notice + DPS

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    Rolling contracts, notice + DPS

    Hi all

    I have been in my privately rented property for 3 1/2 yrs.

    I gave 6 weeks notice on the 11th July to move out 28th Aug.

    I last signed a tenancy agreement around 2 years ago, but had a rent increase just under 1 yr ago.


    My agents told me today that I have to give 2 months notice and require me to pay an additional 2 weeks rent. Even though they told me I was on a rolling contract.

    Under rolling contracts I was led to believe I only have to give one months notice, but they had to give me 2. Is this right?

    Also when I moved in I paid my deposit to the estate agents. So it wouldnt have been protected at that time.

    However when I resigned my new assured shorthold agreement a yr ago, should my deposit have been moved to the DPS? I didnt recieve any notification of this.

    They told me today that they are holding it and will have 10 days in which to return it.

    This was their email..


    We received your notice on 11th July by email, as we require two months notice that will make you liable until 11th September. T*** has booked the move out for that date, Friday 11th September.

    As we are holding your deposit we have ten working days after your move out to refund the deposit, ensuring there are no dilapidations etc.

    If you have paid until 31st you will need to pay the extra 11 days of September, T*** will send a move out pack to you explaining this and giving the amount to pay if there is anything due.
    Can anyone advise me please? How much notice do I actually have to give and what has happened to my deposit?

    I am not able to be at this house in mid Sept, I am moving 4 hrs drive away!

    Thanks all

    #2
    Originally posted by sannyR View Post

    Under rolling contracts I was led to believe I only have to give one months notice, but they had to give me 2. Is this right?
    Yes, unless otherwise agreed in writing, the provisions for notice in the expired tenancy agreement do not carry through to a periodic tenancy. T has to give (at least) one month's notice, the notice to expire at the end of a rental period. So, if your rent is due on, say, the 15th of the month, you must give notice which ends on the 14th, and the last rent you pay will be for a full month.

    But are you sure you're a periodic tenant? You say:

    I last signed a tenancy agreement around 2 years ago
    but then you say
    when I re-signed my new assured shorthold agreement a yr ago...
    So which is it? And if you did sign a new AST a year ago, has the term expired?

    Should my deposit have been moved to the DPS? I didnt recieve any notification of this.
    Yes, with any new or renewed AST after April 2007 the deposit should be protected.

    Comment


      #3
      My apologies I meant to say I last signed an agreement around 2 yrs ago, but only had a letter staing a rent increase around 1 yr ago. I'm fairly certain I didnt sign a new agreement form. My mistake in typing there.

      I'm not quite sure what date my rent is actually due. I just call up and pay it every month over the phone. I was made redundant from my job and so HB have been paying the majority of it, so by the time that is paid to me its usually a week or so after its due. But there has never been a problem with that.

      So as I havent received notification of my rent being protected it doesnt loko like it actually is. It seems to be only held by the estate agents.

      I'm not sure how I should reply to their email now.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by sannyR View Post
        My apologies I meant to say I last signed an agreement around 2 yrs ago, but only had a letter staing a rent increase around 1 yr ago. I'm fairly certain I didnt sign a new agreement form. My mistake in typing there.

        I'm not quite sure what date my rent is actually due. I just call up and pay it every month over the phone. I was made redundant from my job and so HB have been paying the majority of it, so by the time that is paid to me its usually a week or so after its due. But there has never been a problem with that.
        It'll say in your tenancy agreement what date the rent is due. If it doesn't for some reason, tell me the exact dates of the last tenancy agreement - start date and expiry date. Let me know and I can advise you better what to say to the agent.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by westminster View Post
          It'll say in your tenancy agreement what date the rent is due. If it doesn't for some reason, tell me the exact dates of the last tenancy agreement - start date and expiry date. Let me know and I can advise you better what to say to the agent.
          Unfortunately I dont seem to have the original anymore. I'm pretty rubbish with paper work. I suspect that in my house packing I have thrown it away thinking I wouldnt need it anymore.

          I think the last dates were Dec 2007 for 6 months. Either way I havent signed anything in the last 6-12 months.

          According to the receipt I last paid the rent on 11/07/09. I also gave verbal notice, but she asked me to email it, which I did on that date.

          It said this "Please accept this as formal notice to leave. I shall be vacating the property of 76 *** at the end of August."

          Gosh I'm in such a pickle here and I thank you for your time replying to me.

          Comment


            #6
            ah I have found the very 1st agreement (2006), my rent is due the first of every month. Does that help?

            Comment


              #7
              I just found this on another site
              A deposit paid before that date is NOT protected by the Act, even if the tenancy is renewed after that date by the signing of a new tenancy agreement. (This was the decision in the only reported case on the point: see TENANCY DEPOSIT CASE (Section 213 HA 2004))
              I was under the impression that when I signed my new agreement in Dec 07, the money I had paid back in Arpil 2006 would be movd into a protection scheme.

              Can anyone clarify this please?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by sannyR View Post
                I gave 6 weeks notice on the 11th July to move out 28th Aug.
                I last paid the rent on 11/07/09. I also gave verbal notice, but she asked me to email it, which I did on that date.

                It said this "Please accept this as formal notice to leave. I shall be vacating the property of 76 *** at the end of August."
                And the rent was due on the 1st of the month, according to the first tenancy agreement. (The agent's email also seems to support that the rent payment day is the 1st, since they say "if you have paid until 31st"). Well, proceeding on the assumption that the subsequent TA had the same rental payment day - the 1st of the month - you inadvertently gave valid notice, because the notice should have expired on the 31st August, which is equivalent to "the end of August" (even though I think you meant the 28th).

                Pay rent up to and including the 31st August. Print a copy of your email giving notice and file away any other paperwork you can lay your hands on. Renting property can give rise to all kinds of legal claims and it's essential to keep paper work; never throw contracts away, not until everything is settled and deposit returned. Even then, I'd keep the paperwork for at least 6 months afterwards.

                Back to what to say to the agent: here's their email

                We received your notice on 11th July by email, as we require two months notice that will make you liable until 11th September. T*** has booked the move out for that date, Friday 11th September.

                As we are holding your deposit we have ten working days after your move out to refund the deposit, ensuring there are no dilapidations etc.

                If you have paid until 31st you will need to pay the extra 11 days of September, T*** will send a move out pack to you explaining this and giving the amount to pay if there is anything due.
                Here's yours - with the proviso that you are sure your last fixed term has expired and you are indeed in a periodic tenancy:

                Dear Agent,

                Thank you for your letter dated Xth of X. As you are aware, my tenancy has now rolled into a statutory periodic tenancy. The statutory provision for notice is a minimum of one month (not two) to expire at the end of a rental period. In my email dated 11th July, I gave written notice to end the tenancy on 31st August, this being the end of a rental period. I will be vacating the property on 28th August and will therefore have no liability for rent after the expiry of my notice on 31st August.

                As you are also aware, my AST was renewed for a further fixed term in December 2007, creating a new tenancy. You were therefore legally obliged, under S.213 of the Housing Act 2004, to protect my deposit at this time and provide me with the prescribed information. You did not do so.

                I trust that this clarifies matters and that, notwithstanding your oversight with regard to protecting my deposit, we can reach a mutually acceptable arrangement with regard to termination of the tenancy and return of my deposit.

                Yours sincerely
                I know it sounds a bit formal, but I think it still sounds 'friendly' enough? The thing is, you need to be firm and state your rights clearly, but at the same time it will be much easier to resolve this if things are kept on an amicable footing.

                I would suggest you also send the above as a letter by post. Post first class and get a (free) certificate of posting from the post office, and keep a photocopy of the letter attached to the certificate. This provides you with proof that the letter was received. Do this with any letter you send to a LL or agent, now and in the future. An email is fairly good evidence, but people can deny receiving them so if it's important, use the post + certificate method.

                If it turns out that the agent won't accept that you don't owe another 11 days' rent, then at that point you could possibly start being a little less accommodating with regard to the failure to protect your deposit - HOWEVER without an actual copy of a subsequent tenancy agreement signed after April 2007 when the legislation came into force, you don't have any evidence that they should have protected the deposit (do you have any emails or letters discussing or confirming a renewal?) Also, I don't recommend pursuing such claims (you can in theory apply for return of deposit + 3x the deposit 'penalty') as there are risks and no guarantee of results.

                In the event agent deducts the 11 days' rent from the deposit and you can't prove there was a new TA after April 2007, you could issue a claim against the landlord (not the agent) for return of this sum, because you are definitely not liable to pay this if it's a periodic tenancy. If you are on benefits you may be able to get help with the court fee (though it wouldn't be a lot, and it gets added to the debt if you win the case) or legal aid (though this isn't necessary since you could easily DIY as a litigant in person using Money Claim Online).

                BTW, unless the LL/agent carried out an inventory check-in report at the start of the tenancy - signed by you - then it's almost impossible for them to prove you caused any damage and make deductions.

                Let us know how it goes and I'll be happy to help further if this doesn't sort itself out.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by sannyR View Post
                  I just found this on another site

                  "A deposit paid before that date is NOT protected by the Act, even if the tenancy is renewed after that date by the signing of a new tenancy agreement. (This was the decision in the only reported case on the point: see TENANCY DEPOSIT CASE (Section 213 HA 2004))"

                  I was under the impression that when I signed my new agreement in Dec 07, the money I had paid back in Arpil 2006 would be movd into a protection scheme.

                  Can anyone clarify this please?
                  There have been various interpretations of various points of the statute by various judges. From what I have read (and I'm a fairly keen follower of deposit cases) the majority opinion appears to be that LL is obliged to protect the deposit following the creation of a renewed, fixed term AST.

                  Because none of the S.214 claims (claims for failing to protect the deposit) have reached a high enough court, there is no 'precedent' as such, i.e. no higher court ruling that establishes a particular interpretation of the statute on this point. So the quote above is misleading insofar as it implies the decision in the cited case has established a precedent which it hasn't (unless I've missed a landmark ruling...)

                  In short, don't worry about it. Particularly since, as I said, I don't think it's advisable to pursue such claims.

                  Where, as a matter of interest, did you find the above quote?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Oh you angel!

                    Thank you!!

                    I have been in contact with the new estate agents by email, and like a ninny I forgot I could just ask her. I did and she's said the same thing as you regarding the notice period. She hasnt yet come back to me regarding the deposit.

                    I have a scanned copy of my check in. Its lacking detail (which I guess is good for me). All it says is:

                    property in excellent condition throughout, new carpets - few foot marks evident going up the stairs. Newly painted. New hob.
                    Theres tick boxes: ie lounge ' walls VG, flooring: good etc etc..

                    nothing about the skirting boards or wood work/doors etc. Back garden says: good. Fails to mention the sh*t load of broken fence panelling he left and my father cleared away for me. The front garden, doesnt have any ticks by it.

                    I havent had the best of times with this company or LL. The high winds blew all the fencing down and he refused for literally months to fix it.(might have been down to me? I dont know) In the end my father did. Also the toilet cistern is so rusty that it was hanging off the wall, again my father fixed this. The water pipes under tha bath and under the kitchen cupboards have leaked for 3 1/2 yrs. He didnt fix anything.

                    Can I take your wording and put that straight in an email tothem?

                    thank you!!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by westminster View Post
                      There have been various interpretations of various points of the statute by various judges. From what I have read (and I'm a fairly keen follower of deposit cases) the majority opinion appears to be that LL is obliged to protect the deposit following the creation of a renewed, fixed term AST.

                      Because none of the S.214 claims (claims for failing to protect the deposit) have reached a high enough court, there is no 'precedent' as such, i.e. no higher court ruling that establishes a particular interpretation of the statute on this point. So the quote above is misleading insofar as it implies the decision in the cited case has established a precedent which it hasn't (unless I've missed a landmark ruling...)

                      In short, don't worry about it. Particularly since, as I said, I don't think it's advisable to pursue such claims.

                      Where, as a matter of interest, did you find the above quote?
                      It was on consumeractiongroup.co.uk

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by sannyR View Post

                        I havent had the best of times with this company or LL. The high winds blew all the fencing down and he refused for literally months to fix it.(might have been down to me? I dont know) In the end my father did. Also the toilet cistern is so rusty that it was hanging off the wall, again my father fixed this. The water pipes under tha bath and under the kitchen cupboards have leaked for 3 1/2 yrs. He didnt fix anything.
                        LL has a statutory obligation to fix fundamental stuff like plumbing, electrics, etc. The rest will be covered in the TA - so always check to see what you are/aren't responsible for (and n.b. T is almost always responsible for reporting disrepair). You can't negotiate after you've signed on the dotted line. Never assume anything, and if LL makes any promise prior to moving in GET IT IN WRITING (otherwise it's worthless) and keep it on file. See this link for what to do if you have the same problems with disrepair in future.

                        http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_ad...n_private_lets


                        Can I take your wording and put that straight in an email tothem?
                        Yes, of course you can.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by sannyR View Post
                          It was on consumeractiongroup.co.uk
                          Ah, well that explains it. Perfectly good forum but not always the best source of reliable legal advice.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            eeeekk I've sent it...

                            I'll hear back most likely some time tomorrow so I'll post what they say.

                            I've printed it and will send it also.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Once again thank you for your superb info. I feel much happier now.

                              Now, time to continue boxing stuff. if it aint nailed down, it's going in a bloody box.

                              And I got a man coming tomorrow to empty my loft.

                              Comment

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