Agreement unsigned (or inadequately signed): void?

[Lawcruncher]

Traditional way of doing things:

Tenant signs a part and hands it to landlord

Landlord signs a part and hands it to tenant

Both have what they need in court proceedings.

[Moderator1]

Two or more threads on the same topic have been merged here.

[helpmeplease]

Thanks very much, I suppose I'm trying to make sure everything is spot on. before I start filling in forms online. Well, here goes..........

[Snorkerz]

Don't worry - an AST doesn't even need to be written, so a missing signature isn't anything to worry about.

[helpmeplease]

AST unsigned by L: a problem re possession proceedings?

I'm gathering all my paperwork together to back up possession claim and... my agent has forwarded me a copy of the AST without a signature for or on behalf of landlord. Both tenants have signed. My husband remembers attending the agents office and signing paperwork on my behalf.( but cannot remember 100% it was AST or agents letting agreement.) When I queried this with agent, they said that I've got the only copy and that tenants copy would have been signed by agent on my behalf. So what do I do now, submit my AST without signature for landlord or what......

[jeffrey]

I wasn't aware of it being a joint agreement, fair enough I haven't signed or read the tenancy agreement

i am one of the tenants who hasn't signed the agreement, my parent signed a deed of guarentee which refers to me and not a joint tenancy.

These are the troubling bits: not only did you not sign the AST, you did not read it either.

[mickmclardy]

So, you didn't know it was intended (on the landlady's part) to be a joint tenancy when you agreed to take up the accommodation; you have paid your deposit separately; you pay your rent separately; you have your own room (of which you appear to have exclusive possession) and share other facilties; your parents have signed a guarantor's letter referring only to your letting and not to a joint tenancy; and you havent signed any agreement, let alone a joint tenancy.

Well, it may have started as a long shot, but its sounding pretty much like a sole tenancy to me - or at the very least its an argument worth persuing and I doubt whether, on the basis of the evidence you have presented so far, that the landlady would be able to prove the contrary should the matter be considered by a court.

If you are a sole tenant, you are responsible only for your rent and not for any apparently owed by any putative joint tenants.

Preston

I think we should be fine its not like the 2 unpaid tennants are doing a runner they both know what theyve got outstanding and are making an effort to come up with the money to foot the outstanding. hopefully shes just using scare tactics to try and get the money and wont actually take us to court. if she does as long as my parents dont have to get involved as the guarentor they signed only covers me as a sole tennant then im not too worried.

gonna pop into the agent and have a word with regards to the agreement tommorow morning and see what they have to say. thanks for the comments!

mick

[Preston]

i am one of the tennants who hasnt signed the agreement, my parent signed a deed of guarentee which refers to me an not a join tenency.

cheers

So, you didn't know it was intended (on the landlady's part) to be a joint tenancy when you agreed to take up the accommodation; you have paid your deposit separately; you pay your rent separately; you have your own room (of which you appear to have exclusive possession) and share other facilties; your parents have signed a guarantor's letter referring only to your letting and not to a joint tenancy; and you havent signed any agreement, let alone a joint tenancy.

Well, it may have started as a long shot, but its sounding pretty much like a sole tenancy to me - or at the very least its an argument worth persuing and I doubt whether, on the basis of the evidence you have presented so far, that the landlady would be able to prove the contrary should the matter be considered by a court.

If you are a sole tenant, you are responsible only for your rent and not for any apparently owed by any putative joint tenants.

Preston

[Rodent1]

Before this gets trundled off to court, invite LL over, sit down and explain position, propose a sensible timeframe to pay off arrears, assure her that it wont happen again and i think you will find that she will be perfectly happy with this ?

Then make sure you stick to the agreement.

This is not uncommon territory for any seasoned LL. As long as the rent is paid and the prop looked after most of us are very reasonable creatures who understand that we all have cash flow crisis from time to time.

[mickmclardy]

Were you one of the two tenants that signed the agreement and with regard to your guarantor, have they signed a deed of guarantee? If so, does it refer to a joint tenancy or just to you?

Preston

i am one of the tennants who hasnt signed the agreement, my parent signed a deed of guarentee which refers to me an not a join tenency.

cheers

[mickmclardy]

also just out of interest. with 1 grand outstanding on the rent and the tennant currently seeking work and looking to pay it back asap does anyone know if it would it be worth the land ladys time and money to take four of us to court with the cost of legal fees?

thanks

[Preston]

Were you one of the two tenants that signed the agreement and with regard to your guarantor, have they signed a deed of guarantee? If so, does it refer to a joint tenancy or just to you?

Preston

[mickmclardy]

Lack of signature does not make it void. Even an oral AST is valid (even though certainly not to be recommended).

the thing is i wasnt aware of it being a joint agreement, fair enough i havent signed or read the tenancy agreement but we all paid our deposits seperately, and pay seperately each month (i have paid all of my rent every month and on time) the only reason i found out that it was a joint contract was since this matter arose (careless i know). i didnt even agree oraly that the agreement would be joint. i certainly cant afford to pay the other flat mates rent and am scared theyl send threatening letters to my guarentor (parents) who i know also cant afford to be paying for this. is it likely this would go to court and myself or guarentor will have to fork out this cash?

the agreement states its joint and were all liable, with regards to the rooms we all have seperate rooms with locks and pay the rent seperately. and we came to the flat together not brought in seperately by the agent.

thanks

[Preston]

weve had a look at the joing tennancy agreement and only 2 of the tennants have signed it. also it has not been signed by the landlady or the letting agent on her behalf and no witness sig either. would this make the agreement void?? any idea where we stand in the matter?

Hi

Well, if I were you I would start by trying to establish clearly the legal status of you and the other occupiers. On the face of it there was, from what you say, an intention to create a joint tenancy. More than likely, that intention was carried through and you are each jointly and severally liable for the rent in full.

Or alternatively, perhaps you each have individual tenancies; a long shot I would guess, but possibly worth looking at.

So, it might be worth you giving a little more detail on why you think it is a joint tenancy along with some further details such as, do you pay your rents separately; did you all move in and start paying on the same day, or separate days; did you apply for the accommodation jointly or were you brought together by the landlord; why has the agreement not been signed; do you each have separate rooms and do you have locks on your rooms? Is there any other information you think might be relevant?

Preston

[mind the gap]

hi, im new to this forum and have been reading some of the threads, got a bit of a problem i thought someone might be able to give some advice on.

im renting a 4 bed flat with mates with a joing tennancy agreement. 2 of the tennants havent paid the rent upto date, theres about 2 grand outstanding in total which one of the lads have agreed to pay 1grand off in 3 weeks once his student loan comes in but were still short 1k in the short term which we cannot pay at the moment.

the landlady has threatened to take court action and came around the flat on friday going nuts after letting herself in and giving no indication of the visit prior. shes threatening us all saying we are all liable for the outstaning amount

weve had a look at the joing tennancy agreement and only 2 of the tennants have signed it. also it has not been signed by the landlady or the letting agent on her behalf and no witness sig either. would this make the agreement void?? any idea where we stand in the matter?

thanks in advance
mick

Good try, but no. A tenancy agreement does not have to be written - it could be granted as an oral agreement - and the fact that you have moved in, lived there, paid some rent and presumably a deposit, all point fairly conclusively to the fact that you are all joint tenants and that you are all jointly liable for the whole rent.

She should not have come into the property without asking first, and you have the right to ask her not to do so.

But you need to pay the rent.