unfurnished property, can I get my cooker back?

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  • unfurnished property, can I get my cooker back?

    I have let my property unfurnished on an AST which has just become periodic.

    There is no inventory. Do I have to leave the gas cooker in the property? It has been there from the begining of the tenancy 6 months ago.

    I am about to arrange the anual gas safety check and wish to remove the cooker at the same time. Do I have to leave something to cook on?

  • #2
    Originally posted by HRNorthernlass View Post
    I have let my property unfurnished on an AST which has just become periodic.

    There is no inventory. Do I have to leave the gas cooker in the property? It has been there from the begining of the tenancy 6 months ago.

    I am about to arrange the anual gas safety check and wish to remove the cooker at the same time. Do I have to leave something to cook on?
    Why do you want to remove the cooker?

    In the interests of preserving a good relationship with your tenant, it would be an idea to discuss this with them! If they are going to be there a while, they may be willing to provide their own, but what if they cannot afford it? It's a bit mean, just removing it and expecting them to sort themsleves out when they have had the use of it for the first six months.

    I think technically, you are not legally required to provide a cooker if prop is let unfurnished but in the circumstances it would be reasonable to continue doing so, don't you think?
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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    • #3
      about that cooker

      The legal position is what I'm concerned about not the "good relationship" that went when they stopped paying the rent two months ago and refused to move out after saying they were going to.

      ...yes I'm proceeding with s21 but meanwhile I still have to sort out the gas check no doubt I'm still liable even though they don't stick to their side of the bargain ... was considering blanking off the gas completely so I don't have to keep paying out for checks for non paying tenants. Was considering removing the gas fire too but think I'll leave that for now... it's harder to remove and sell which is what I think they will do with the cooker.



      Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
      Why do you want to remove the cooker?

      In the interests of preserving a good relationship with your tenant, it would be an idea to discuss this with them! If they are going to be there a while, they may be willing to provide their own, but what if they cannot afford it? It's a bit mean, just removing it and expecting them to sort themsleves out when they have had the use of it for the first six months.

      I think technically, you are not legally required to provide a cooker if prop is let unfurnished but in the circumstances it would be reasonable to continue doing so, don't you think?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by HRNorthernlass View Post
        The legal position is what I'm concerned about not the "good relationship" that went when they stopped paying the rent two months ago and refused to move out after saying they were going to.

        ...yes I'm proceeding with s21 but meanwhile I still have to sort out the gas check no doubt I'm still liable even though they don't stick to their side of the bargain ... was considering blanking off the gas completely so I don't have to keep paying out for checks for non paying tenants. Was considering removing the gas fire too but think I'll leave that for now... it's harder to remove and sell which is what I think they will do with the cooker.
        Fine - but you didn't tell us all that in the first place!

        Bear in mind however, that if you are looking to re-let (depending on how easy you anticipate that will be - market forces &c) - your property may be more attractive to prospective tenants with a cooker, than without. Most unfurnished props these days have fitted kitchens in which built in hobs and ovens are standard. Not worth cutting off your nose to spite your face over?

        I suppose you could remove it and store it and replace when new Ts move in, but that would cost almost as much as a new cooker.
        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HRNorthernlass View Post
          There is no inventory. Do I have to leave the gas cooker in the property? It has been there from the begining of the tenancy 6 months ago.
          Hmm. I would have said yes, you do. If the tenant viewed and took on the property with a cooker in place, then you can't suddenly remove it now. I don't think the fact that the property is "unfurnished", and certainly not the absence of an inventiry, have any bearing on the matter - eg many so-called unfurnished properties come with white goods provided.

          I'd go as far as to suggest that if you do remove the cooker, it could be construed as harassment, which might compromise your reposession proceedings.

          Just my non-trained opinion though - what do others reckon?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ericthelobster View Post
            Hmm. I would have said yes, you do. If the tenant viewed and took on the property with a cooker in place, then you can't suddenly remove it now. I don't think the fact that the property is "unfurnished", and certainly not the absence of an inventiry, have any bearing on the matter - eg many so-called unfurnished properties come with white goods provided.

            I'd go as far as to suggest that if you do remove the cooker, it could be construed as harassment, which might compromise your reposession proceedings.

            Just my non-trained opinion though - what do others reckon?

            I would agree Ericthelobster. Besides, a tenant who is being this obstructive is hardly likely to agree for access to remove. If you enter to do the gas cert, that's a little different (albeit the T can still refuse access if they so choose and make you jump through a few more hoops) but I would have thought that if you book a gas cert and it's permitted to go ahead by the tenant that does not allow you to remove the cooker without agreeing that or mentioning that as part of the reason for the visit at the very least.

            I have a complete idiot of a tenant who is cheesing me off and I'm trying to get rid of but for my own protection I am happy to follow the law as I don't want him to be able to chuck anything back in my face (or for me to have to go to prison!).

            And to the OP. NO, you can't disconnect the gas supply or remove the fire or anything else of that nature. You can only have anything disconnected/capped off if they are dangerous but your S11 landlord repairing obligations continue regardless of whether the tenant is paying rent and thus they will need to be repaired or replaced. Games of that nature were ruled out by the law along time ago. If you do such things you are likely to find yourself in deep trouble.

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            • #7
              cooker or not?

              The cooker was not in the property when the T viewed. I supplied it afterwards in goodwill, it's freestanding and could easily be removed and or replaced. In fact it's the ease of removal that is concerning me as I suspect the T will find it's monetary value too tempting.
              The T already owes me more than the amount of the deposit so I wont be able to take the value of it out of the deposit.
              Good point about the harrassment issue, I think I will find a much cheaper electric one and swap them. T can still cook and I can keep my cooker.

              Thank you to all who offered advice.
              HR


              Originally posted by Ericthelobster View Post
              Hmm. I would have said yes, you do. If the tenant viewed and took on the property with a cooker in place, then you can't suddenly remove it now. I don't think the fact that the property is "unfurnished", and certainly not the absence of an inventiry, have any bearing on the matter - eg many so-called unfurnished properties come with white goods provided.

              I'd go as far as to suggest that if you do remove the cooker, it could be construed as harassment, which might compromise your reposession proceedings.

              Just my non-trained opinion though - what do others reckon?

              Comment


              • #8
                Apology

                Sorry MTG
                my earlier response sounded a little terse. I apologise and can only offer the excuse that dealing with this situation is causing me to worry a lot.

                On the cooker front. I have a T lined up for the very near future (as soon as this one can be gently removed). Taking the cooker out is a doddle as it's freestanding and storage is no problem. It is the legal position that concerns me should I be breaching some law by leaving the T without something to cook on. I've come to the conclusion that it would be circumspect to replace the cooker, albeit with something cheaper.

                Many thanks for your comments.
                HR



                Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                Fine - but you didn't tell us all that in the first place!

                Bear in mind however, that if you are looking to re-let (depending on how easy you anticipate that will be - market forces &c) - your property may be more attractive to prospective tenants with a cooker, than without. Most unfurnished props these days have fitted kitchens in which built in hobs and ovens are standard. Not worth cutting off your nose to spite your face over?

                I suppose you could remove it and store it and replace when new Ts move in, but that would cost almost as much as a new cooker.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HRNorthernlass View Post
                  The cooker was not in the property when the T viewed. I supplied it afterwards in goodwill, it's freestanding and could easily be removed and or replaced. In fact it's the ease of removal that is concerning me as I suspect the T will find it's monetary value too tempting.
                  The T already owes me more than the amount of the deposit so I wont be able to take the value of it out of the deposit.
                  Good point about the harrassment issue, I think I will find a much cheaper electric one and swap them. T can still cook and I can keep my cooker.

                  Thank you to all who offered advice.
                  HR
                  Don't forget, an electric one will need a different power cable and switched socket, etc, not just an ordinary one. If the wiring for an electric cooker is not there already it could cost a couple of hundred.
                  'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                    Don't forget, an electric one will need a different power cable and switched socket, etc, not just an ordinary one. If the wiring for an electric cooker is not there already it could cost a couple of hundred.

                    I might be wrong here but switching the cooker is not as easy as the OP makes it sound aside from the potential wiring issue. Access to make the switch is the issue.

                    Unless of course the tenant happily agrees to the switch.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      one problem leads to another...

                      There is already the correct wiring and socket for an electric cooker.

                      Access is going to be the issue, now I've decided not to leave the T without a cooker. It's only recently that they have decided to start not allowing me into the property.

                      I gather I will have to give written notice and then allow the T to tell me that the chosen time is not convenient as they did last time I tried to enter. I'll offer them the chance to pick a time but I'd put money on them chosing a time when I'm at work 140 miles away. Bother bother bother!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bunny View Post
                        I might be wrong here but switching the cooker is not as easy as the OP makes it sound aside from the potential wiring issue. Access to make the switch is the issue.

                        Unless of course the tenant happily agrees to the switch.
                        Absolutely, I agree. If T decides to be awkward, all OP can do is wait until possession, then claim back her cooker. If T has stolen it, she is in a difficult position becasue she has no inventory.

                        If she can prove the cooker was in the prop by some other means, she may be able to prosecute T for theft - but it is probably not worth the hassle.

                        How much is this cooker worth?
                        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HRNorthernlass View Post
                          I have let my property unfurnished on an AST which has just become periodic.

                          There is no inventory. Do I have to leave the gas cooker in the property? It has been there from the begining of the tenancy 6 months ago.

                          I am about to arrange the anual gas safety check and wish to remove the cooker at the same time. Do I have to leave something to cook on?
                          The action you proposed could lead to the following:-

                          Breach of the covenant of quiet enjoyment;
                          Harrasment;
                          Breach of an implied term in the tenancy that you would continue to provide the goods with which the property has been supplied;
                          Trespass as you entered the property for a purpose not allowed under the tenancy.

                          Leave the gas fire alone as you could definately be done for disrepair , as under S. 11 LTA 1985 you are responsible for the installations in the dwelling for the provision of space heating. this would also be significant evidence of harrasment and breach of covenant for quiet enjoyment.

                          The legal position on swapping the cooker is also not clear and in that instance I would leave it alone unless the tenancy specifies that you can change appliances without the tenant's agreement.
                          Last edited by Ashley; 03-03-2009, 00:39 AM. Reason: additional notes

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by HRNorthernlass View Post
                            Access is going to be the issue, now I've decided not to leave the T without a cooker. It's only recently that they have decided to start not allowing me into the property.
                            Seems to me that you're just creating unecessary stress and aggravation for yourself. You've got enough on your plate with a non-paying, non-access-giving tenant who you're trying to evict - that's the big picture. To involve yourself in trying to enforce access in order to exchange cookers, on the off chance that the tenant pinches the first one, is just causing yourself a huge amount of unnecessary grief.

                            The cost of a landlord's check is peanuts in comparison to that of lost rent and eviction proceedings; furthermore, consider the cost differential in the value of the two second-hand cookers, which is the amount of money you're worried about losing there?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Got to agree with Eric the lobster on this one. You are causing yourself extra agro for nothing. If you need to get your gas safety certificate renewed then presumably the engineer will also be checking your GAS cooker and the gas fire, these will be listed on the certificate, so you have proof that the cooker was in the property at that time. Presumably you have the receipt from your purchase of the thing at the beginning of the tenancy, so should the tenant decide to pinch the cooker you would appear to have enough "proof" to show "it was 'im what done it". You really need to concentrate your efforts on getting your non-paying tenant out ASAP.

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