Is this a Valid S21?

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  • Is this a Valid S21?

    Hi all

    Hope you can help. I need to know if the S21 notice I served on my tenant is valid or not.

    Specifics:

    AST Start Date: 28th June 2007 (for one year)
    Fixed tenancy period end date: 27th June 2008
    Notice served on: 31st October 2008
    Notice expired on: 31st December 2008

    The tenant is in a periodic tenancy (paid rent weekly as a Housing Benefit tenant and HB is calculated weekly).

    I would like to know if this is legally valid and if not, the correct notice period I would have to serve instead.

    Thank you for all your help!

    Kind regards

    Kaya*

  • #2
    Originally posted by Kaya View Post
    Hi all

    Hope you can help. I need to know if the S21 notice I served on my tenant is valid or not.

    Specifics:

    AST Start Date: 28th June 2007 (for one year)
    Fixed tenancy period end date: 27th June 2008
    Notice served on: 31st October 2008
    Notice expired on: 31st December 2008

    The tenant is in a periodic tenancy (paid rent weekly as a Housing Benefit tenant and HB is calculated weekly).

    I would like to know if this is legally valid and if not, the correct notice period I would have to serve instead.

    Thank you for all your help!

    Kind regards

    Kaya*
    As long as the notice period is at least 8 weeks, which it seems to be, and its expiry date co-incides with the end of a rent period (ie the day of the week before rent day), then it should be in order.

    It is invalidated if you have not protected their deposit in a scheme (you did, I assume?)

    Anyone disagree?
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
      It is invalidated if you have not protected their deposit in a scheme (you did, I assume?)
      I did not take a deposit at the start of the tenancy, so this clause does not apply I assume? I instead asked for two months rent in advance, which the tenant has stuck to.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kaya View Post
        I did not take a deposit at the start of the tenancy, so this clause does not apply I assume? I instead asked for two months rent in advance, which the tenant has stuck to.
        By that, do you mean that the tenant paid two months rent before moving in, then no more until the start of the third month?

        Or do you mean that the tenant paid two months up front then had to pay again at the satrt of the first or the second month, so that you always had at least one month's money 'over' in addition to what T paid for the current month? (hope that makes sense!)

        If the latter scenario, then I'm afraid that may well be seen as a deposit, not rent, and needs to be protected.
        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

        Comment


        • #5
          Leaving aside the deposit scenario, is this S21 notice valid? Assuming there IS NO deposit taken or to be repaid, do the DATES of the notice stack up? That's what I want to confirm. Thank you all

          Kaya*

          Comment


          • #6
            *edit - noticed rent paid weekly.

            if the rent is to be paid weekly then the rent due dates appear to be : -

            28 Jun 08
            5 July 08
            12 July 08
            19 July 08
            26 July 08
            2 Aug 08
            9 Aug 08
            16 Aug 08
            23 Aug 08
            30 Aug 08
            6 Sept 08
            13 Sept 08
            20 Sept 08
            27 Sept 08
            4 Oct 08
            11 Oct 08
            18 Oct 08
            25 Oct 08

            The last period expires on 31 October therefore notice is vaild
            PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

            Comment


            • #7
              No they don't. How did you serve the notice? By hand or by post? If by hand after 5pm then it will not give a full 2 months notice as it must be served within business hours. If by Post you have not allowed time for it to arrive.

              Also you may fall down on the two months rent thing.. have a trawl I believe some judges have deemed it a deposit.
              GOVERNMENT HEALTH WARNING: I am a woman and am therefore prone to episodes of PMT... if you don't like what I have to say you can jolly well put it in your pipe and SMOKE IT!!

              Oh and on a serious note... I am NOT a Legal person and therefore anything I post could be complete and utter drivel... but its what I have learned in the University called Life!

              Comment


              • #8
                Is rent PAYABLE weekly, never mind how it's actually PAID?
                And did L issue a rent book or similar item [s.4 of LTA 1985]?
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by justaboutsane View Post
                  No they don't. How did you serve the notice? By hand or by post?
                  Notice was served by hand at 10.00am on 31st October

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                    Is rent PAYABLE weekly, never mind how it's actually PAID?
                    And did L issue a rent book or similar item [s.4 of LTA 1985]?
                    Rent is payable weekly (as in the AST agreement) as the T is on HB and HB is calculated weekly (although paid every 4 weeks)

                    I issued a rent book, in the form of an excel sheet with the rent payments due/revieved, which the T can view at any time as it's on a virtual private network drive (I update this every week), and I also email it to T once a month. Is this acceptable, or do I need to get the old-fashioned paper kind?!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paul Gibbs View Post
                      *edit - noticed rent paid weekly.

                      if the rent is to be paid weekly then the rent due dates appear to be : -

                      28 Jun 08
                      5 July 08
                      12 July 08
                      19 July 08
                      26 July 08
                      2 Aug 08
                      9 Aug 08
                      16 Aug 08
                      23 Aug 08
                      30 Aug 08
                      6 Sept 08
                      13 Sept 08
                      20 Sept 08
                      27 Sept 08
                      4 Oct 08
                      11 Oct 08
                      18 Oct 08
                      25 Oct 08

                      The last period expires on 31 October therefore notice is vaild
                      Hi Paul

                      Thank you for that! So the last period is expires on 31st October?!! Is this correct? Are you sure! Reason being I don't fully understand what a 'period' means - as a woman I know periods occur once every 28 days, but are rent 'periods' the same (if rent payable weekly)

                      Thank you so much for your help!

                      Kaya*

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kaya View Post
                        Hi Paul

                        Thank you for that! So the last period is expires on 31st October?!! Is this correct? Are you sure! Reason being I don't fully understand what a 'period' means - as a woman I know periods occur once every 28 days, but are rent 'periods' the same (if rent payable weekly)

                        Thank you so much for your help!

                        Kaya*
                        A rent period for your purposes is one week ending on the day before rent falls due. However all this is academic if the extra month's rent which you took 'up front' at start of tenancy, could be deemed by a judge to be a deposit. If it is, your section 21 is invalid since you have not protected said deposit.

                        If you answer the questions I asked in #3, we can advise you more accurately.
                        'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                          By that, do you mean that the tenant paid two months rent before moving in, then no more until the start of the third month?

                          Or do you mean that the tenant paid two months up front then had to pay again at the satrt of the first or the second month, so that you always had at least one month's money 'over' in addition to what T paid for the current month? (hope that makes sense!)

                          If the latter scenario, then I'm afraid that may well be seen as a deposit, not rent, and needs to be protected.
                          OK, situation is: T paid 8 weeks rent up front (out of her own money) when she moved in. Rent was not then due until 8 weeks after she moved in. Because she is a HB T and HB is paid in arrears, and no further rent was paid until 8 weeks after T began (so now no rent in advance). I don't consider this to be a deposit, but will a judge - perhaps? I don't hold any deposit by the way, all monies recieved and due have been applied to the rent account, and the account is very rarely either + or - for which ever date you care to name. Hope this helps!

                          Kaya*

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kaya View Post
                            OK, situation is: T paid 8 weeks rent up front (out of her own money) when she moved in. Rent was not then due until 8 weeks after she moved in. Because she is a HB T and HB is paid in arrears, and no further rent was paid until 8 weeks after T began (so now no rent in advance). I don't consider this to be a deposit, but will a judge - perhaps? I don't hold any deposit by the way, all monies recieved and due have been applied to the rent account, and the account is very rarely either + or - for which ever date you care to name. Hope this helps!

                            Kaya*
                            In that case, I do not think it would be viewed as a deposit; your s21 is therefore valid and correctly served.
                            'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Do you know if this rent book is valid also? The point was raised by another forum member:

                              Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                              did L issue a rent book or similar item [s.4 of LTA 1985]?

                              Originally posted by Kaya;

                              I issued a rent book, in the form of an excel sheet with the rent payments due/revieved, which the T can view at any time as it's on a virtual private network drive (I update this every week), and I also email it to T once a month. Is this acceptable, or do I need to get the old-fashioned paper kind?!
                              I want to make sure everything is valid to the letter of the law! So is it agreed here that I have served a valid S21? If so, can a judge claim otherwise and throw the case out or court? Is this black and white, or are there grey areas? This is important!! Thank you all once again for you tremendous help with this!

                              Thanks

                              Kaya*

                              Comment

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