Letting to lodger: what Agreement form/wording?

[mind the gap]

hey, Preston, you read my mind!

[foxuk]

a) what does your agreement say you are allowed to use the deposit for?

In my lodger Agreement the deposit "is not to use by the lodger and returnable at the end of the notice period"

b) what exactly do you want to deduct from the deposit and why?

His deposit was £ 450, (same amounth of month rent), I need deduct the cost of 1 new DVD, 1 new portable heating, hand job for fixing the bed, 3 hrs cleaning.

If (a) matches (b), you should be ok.

he doesn't owe me bills, as all the bills was included in the rent.

His business inside the property wasn't mean nothing?

[mind the gap]

b) what exactly do you want to deduct from the deposit and why?

His deposit was £ 450, (same amounth of month rent), I need deduct the cost of 1 new DVD, 1 new portable heating, hand job for fixing the bed, 3 hrs cleaning.?

OK : DVD player £30; portable heater £20; fixing bed £40; 3 hrs cleaning + materials £50

That makes £140...so I can understand why he wants the rest back (£approx £310).

His business inside the property wasn't mean nothing?

Not unless you want to take him to court about it - and to be honest, I'm not sure what you'd hope to achieve. You cannot threaten to report him to the immigration authorities as an illegal worker if he goes away and drops his claim for the deposit - that starts to sound very much like blackmail.

If you do not intend to return his deposit, all you can do is say 'sue me for it, then'. Which he may, or may not do.

[foxuk]

Thank you for the advice. It is not my intention to blackmail no one including him.
As I have replied him, I will wait for his call and personally, I can back him his refund deposit deducted above-mentioned.
Thank you!

[smileypigface]

A Question

OK - so wrote lodger a letter dated 26 Jan (hard copy at house, e-mail copy to his e-mail address) giving him notice - options were:

1. Move out without incurring any more rental charge - clear room by 1800 on 31 Jan - let me know by lunchtime 29th Jan and I would be at house to check room, take keys and refund deposit.

2. Move out at end Feb - due to previous late rent, rent due by banks closing on Mon 2 Feb (he got paid on Fri 30 Jan) - I would be at house on 28 Feb to take keys and refund deposit.

3. If rent not received then 48 hours to clear room and I will be at house at 1800 on 4th Feb to check room, take keys and refund deposit.

If room cleared and keys left then to leave forwarding address for refund of deposit by cheque.

So, he cleared his room by 1800 Sunday 1 Feb and then bombards me with text messages demanding I be at the house this evening to take keys and refund deposit - I pointed out that if he wanted to leave the keys at the house then he would only be liable for 1 day apportioned rent for Feb but if he waits until Monday night it will be 2 days. And anyway, me being at the house tonight was not an option due to work commitments.

He then tried to embark upon a p-ing contest about whether I consider the other lodger to be tidy - when I didn't respond to his questions about this he sent me picture message of a dish of food on the worksurface in my kitchen! (presumably belonging to the other lodger)

This is just too childish for words.

He finally 'argues' me round to dropping the keys today and coming back on Wednesday when I said all along I would be here to refund his deposit -which is exactly what I'd said in my letter. Most of my replies simply referred him back to the notice letter.

Today I get a phone call from a letting company asking for a reference for him - I answered their questions concisely and truthfully (albeit I have pointed out to him that out of courtesy he should of told me he had passed on my details to them):

Did he pay his rent on time ... no
Did he look after your property ... no, he left it unsecured for 4 days and turned off essential extractor fans leaving my bathrooms susceptible to mould growing.
Would I recommend him to another landlord ... no, most definitely not.

10 minutes later he sends me a text asking me to ring him to discuss the reference I have given. I reply to say it's not open for discussion I have answered the questions honestly and there is nothing more to say. He then wants me to ring them back and explain it wasn't his fault the rent was late it was all down to his bank ... nope, my agreement was with him, not his bank and his banking problems are not transferrable to me ..... so why didn't I remind him sooner if it had been a problem ... errr because he is an adult and was well aware of what he had signed up to. That he chose his course of action and the consequence is that my reference isn't what he would like it to be - but I had been honest and factual. His final comment was that he wouldn't drop the key tonight as the roads are too bad - unless I want him to endanger his life!!

What a childish twit .. he continually blames everyone else for the things he has done .. tries to bleat "it's not fair" at his treatment compared to the other lodger and now this! I'm afraid I replied "For goodness sake grow up - it's worse than the tripe I get from my teenage children."

If he's not bringing the key because of the bad weather then why not just say that.

Anyway, having not slept at all last night knowing he has my house keys I have booked a locksmith for tomorrow to change the locks ... should I honour my agreement with him and refund his deposit (less the two days of Feb as it's not his fault he can't get here due to the weather) or should I say that I want no further dealings with him and will be using his deposit to pay the locksmith due to the fact he should have left his key when I asked him to on Sunday.

I feel to be fair I should honour the agreement to refund him but his attitude and manner towards me is unacceptable and I do not trust him to safeguard my keys and therefore should I use the balance of his deposit to pay for the locks.

The deposit is £100.

Sorry for the long post again .. even the dog has given up listen to me go on about it all !!!

[mind the gap]

I would just 'let go' of this one without getting into too much of a fight about the locks.

Have the locks changed as planned, but don't deduct the cost from what you plan to refund to him - many LLs change locks routinely when Ts move out, (even if keys are returned on time) just in case they have given copies of keys to anyone else.

Be magnanimous - this guy clearly is a sad, inadequate wretch who is going to struggle to find accommodation elsewhere. If you kick up a fuss about charging for the locks and he feels resentful, he may feel moved to return and aggravate you, whereas if you are decent, he is more likely just to 'let it go', too.

Just get shut...wash this man right out of your hair! It'll be worth £100 I should imagine?

Good luck. (Are we all invited to the party when he's gone?!)

[Cathroc]

Sounds like a right ***. Better off shot of him. Think I'd be inclined to ignore the two days and think yourself lucky. As for the keys........ are they registered because if they are, they're not meant to be copied for anyone else but you. Am I being naiive ?

[mind the gap]

As for the keys........ are they registered because if they are, they're not meant to be copied for anyone else but you. Am I being naiive ?

Most resident landlords (and many non-resident ones) don't bother with registered keys. They are expensive. It tends to be large organisations e.g. university accommodation offices, who insist on them, as their tenants are harder to keep tabs on.

[Preston]

Hi,

Sorry I haven't had time to read through all the detail in your posts. It might be worth distilling your information down to one or two key questions if you can, although I accept that isn't easy. In the meantime, some background information on resident landlord tenancies.

Where the landlord (or a member of his or her family) shares any accommodation with the person he or she is letting, the letting is excluded. “Shared accommodation” means any part other than stairs, halls, passageways or storage space; so that while a tenant in a self-contained flat would not be considered to be sharing accommodation with the landlord, even someone who has most of their own facilities but shares a toilet would. However, even if the occupier only shares accommodation with a member of the landlord’s family, the arrangement will still be counted as a sharing one if the landlord himself also lives in the house.

For non-excluded tenancies and licences, notice must be of at least whichever is the longest of:
• four weeks, or
• the term of the let, if any (for example, a month if rent is
paid monthly), or
• whatever has been agreed between the parties
and, for a periodic tenancy, end on the last day of a period(usually the day rent is due). It must be served in writing; if itis served by the landlord, it must include certain specifiedinformation (see appendix A – pre-printed forms are available from law stationers). Notice to quit should be clear and accurate about the property and the tenant or licensee it is addressed to. While some minor errors that could not mislead the recipient may be overlooked, defects in the content or timing of a notice will make it invalid.

For a non-excluded licence or tenancy, eviction must only be via a possession order from the court.

For excluded tenancies, unless you and the tenant agree otherwise, notice must be at least the length of the period and end on a rent day. However, there is no four-week minimum (so, for example, a weekly tenancy could be ended with a week’s notice), and you and the tenant are free to agree in advance that notice should be shorter or longer. Notice does not need to be written (so there are no requirements for prescribed form), but it is a good idea to give it in writing anyway, in case of future dispute. However it is served, it must still be clear and be timed properly in order to be valid.

For excluded licences, the notice required is simply the longer of whatever has been agreed between the parties (if anything) and what is ‘reasonable’. Reasonableness can ultimately only be decided by the courts, but is a matter of fairness and common sense: for example, taking into account the licensee’s conduct, or how easy it would be for him or her to find alternative accommodation. Notice of the same length as would be required for a similar tenancy would normally be considered reasonable, but if there is likely to be a dispute it would be necessary to take legal advice. Again, there is no need in law for notice to be in writing, but it is recommended to do so.

For an excluded licence or tenancy, there is no legal requirement for you to get a possession order so long as notice has been correctly given. However, a landlord who finds him or herself with a former tenant or licensee who refuses to leave is still strongly advised to apply to the court for eviction. It is a criminal offence for a landlord – or someone working on his or her behalf – to use force to make an occupier leave against the occupier’s will, even where the tenancy or licence has been properly brought to an end (or expired, if a fixed term). It is also an offence to use threats of force.

[smileypigface]

I would just 'let go' of this one without getting into too much of a fight about the locks.

Have the locks changed as planned, but don't deduct the cost from what you plan to refund to him - many LLs change locks routinely when Ts move out, (even if keys are returned on time) just in case they have given copies of keys to anyone else.

Be magnanimous - this guy clearly is a sad, inadequate wretch who is going to struggle to find accommodation elsewhere. If you kick up a fuss about charging for the locks and he feels resentful, he may feel moved to return and aggravate you, whereas if you are decent, he is more likely just to 'let it go', too.

Just get shut...wash this man right out of your hair! It'll be worth £100 I should imagine?

Good luck. (Are we all invited to the party when he's gone?!)

Many thanks - excellent advice - I know you are right in what you say and have just sent him a text asking him for his bank details and made a refund of the deposit less the 2 days apportioned rent previously agreed. I've just asked him to put the keys in the post and not mentioned anything about getting the locks changed.

Sorted.

Time for the party I think - the lemonades are on me!!!!!!

Many thanks for everyone's advice - much appreciated.

[International Hamster]

Can I evict my lodger? What are his rights (if any)?

Hi everyone,

I've read through the forums to see what other landlords have done with their lodgers during troubles times and it's been a help, but I wonder if anyone can help with my specific problem.

This is a fairly long rant and for that I apologise, but I value being able to relax at home and I perhaps naively thought that as my previous 2 tenants were so good that things would work out this time.

The history is that I was made redundant last October whilst looking for a new lodger, my previous lodger having returned to university (and left me a present of my favourite beer as thanks for being such a good landlord). As I was out of work I was desperate and in the end I took in someone I had some doubts about simply because I needed the money.

The lodger has his own room but there is no agreement that I am excluded access to it, indeed I stated when he moved in that I may need entry from time to time to ventilate his room (and my flat is a basement flat). There is also no written agreement, simply that his rent is due in advance of the month, I'm to hold one month's deposit and standard notice is 1 month.

Well as you may expect from me posting here, things have turned sour. He's been staying 4 months now and his behaviour has left a lot to be desired.

- Bangs every door when he uses it, which is frequently as, for example, when he makes a cup of tea he typically goes from his room to the kitchen and back 3 times just for 1 cup.
- Makes noise at unsociable times e.g. coming home at 12:30am, banging doors, phone constantly going off and then up at 07:30am the next day even on weekends.
- He has never paid his rent on time and every month I've had to remind him. Exception was last month when I told him a week in advance not to forget, and he "only" paid it a day late. When he first moved in he agreed to setup a standing order which he has never done.
- Having been told he can use the spare room for temporary storage when he moved in, he has left piles of stuff in there for the duration of his stay
- Constantly leaves mess everywhere. He drinks tea like it's going out of fashion and is into double figures for the amount of times he has spilled more than a few drops of tea and not cleaned it up. Last time he spilled it down my white walls near the front door and just left it. He also destroys the oven when he uses it e.g. by using the grill on maximum setting to cook bacon or sausages, hence fat all over the oven and oven door, which then smells.
- There's many other things, but this post will be long enough already.

I first mentioned the banging doors, tea spills and lack of standing order in a fairly cordial discussion 2 months ago, where he agreed he would try to be quieter.

One month ago, after being woke up both days on two weekends on the trot but the 12:30am-07:30am behaviour mentioned above, I had an argument with him, asking him why it was so difficult for him to be quiet, to which he responded with a long list of excuses about how none of it was his fault and he didn't like being "harassed and harangued".

So I asked him to move out and we agreed he had until the end of March to look (so about 7/8 weeks).

A week ago he spoke to my live-in girlfriend and said he had found a place for the end of March, and could he not pay his rent for the last month and use his deposit as rent instead. My girlfriend gave a negative response, to which the lodger began ranting and intimidating her, so she said he should talk to me, to which the lodger agreed.

Well since then we have not seen him. He certainly hasn't asked me if it's alright not to pay rent for the last month, possibly because he knows I would say no. So the deadline for his rent has now passed with no sign of him or his rent. I guess he thinks if he doesn't speak to me he can get away without paying rent.

The only number I have for him is for his old phone, which he recently replaced, so I've left a voicemail for him to contact me. He works for the emergency services but the only number I can find for is an emergency one, which isn't appropriate in this case.

So what I want to do is leave a letter in his room stating he has 7 days to pay his rent or be evicted, denied further access and for his belongings to be put in storage, any cost of which wll come out of his deposit, along with rent owed. What I'm actually going to do on that date is change the locks when he is out and put his in bin bags in the shed.

Is this within my rights? I've spent the last week waiting for him to make an appearance to tell him in person but he simply hasn't shown up, which demonstrates to me he has somewhere else to stay.

The thing is, my first lodger asked me if it was alright to use his deposit as last month's rent and he was a good guy to live with so I actually agreed. But my current lodger has proven himself to be completely untrustworthy and selfish. He seems to think he can just do what he wants, hence why I now just want to be rid of him.

Any help and advice would be gratefully received (and sorry for the long post).

[mind the gap]

In other words, can the resident LL change locks and use deposit for the last month's rent when lodger seems to have ceased occupying but has not removed his belongings?

[jeffrey]

Lodgers have effectively no rights as against their resident L except for any explicitly granted in any Letting Agreement into which they enter.

[mind the gap]

Lodgers have effectively no rights as against their resident L except for any explicitly granted in any Letting Agreement into which they enter.

So the answer is yes, you can change the locks; you can presumably keep the deposit in lieu of rent unless your letting agreement specifically prohibits that; but you will need to trawl LLz threads on 'abandoned property' as there are laws which relate to what you may and may not do with that.

[International Hamster]

In other words, can the resident LL change locks and use deposit for the last month's rent when lodger seems to have ceased occupying but has not removed his belongings?

Not quite. The lodger has decided he doesn't have to pay rent for this last month and use deposit in leiu, something that I have not and will not agree to. As far as I am concerned, if he and/or his stuff his still here, he pays rent or leaves and takes his stuff with him.

I have no idea if his absence will continue or even if he will turn up tonight, but so far this is out of his normal behaviour pattern and he has made no effort to let me know what he is doing, when I have been nothing but upfront with him.

My question is, as the lodger has not paid rent, can I evict him on a week's notice, when I have no means to contact him other than leaving a letter in his room, and put his stuff in storage, most likely wrapped up in bin bags in my shed, for him to pick up whenever he decides to make an appearance?

So the answer is yes, you can change the locks

Well that's good news as my primary thought is keeping him out so I don't have to worry about malicious acts or further intimidation.

If I do wrap his stuff up in bin bags with reasonable care and put this in the shed, which the lodger considers secure enough to store his £1000 bike in, surely this is a reasonable storage arrangement? Even if I charge him standard self-storage fees he might even be in the ironic position where he could get some of his deposit returned.

Thanks for your quick replies guys.