Letting to lodger: what Agreement form/wording?

[Bel]

Hi

The most important question is whether the individual has a tenancy or a licence.

All of the following advice assumes that you share some living accommodation with the occupant, e.g. a living room, kitchen or bathroom. If you do not, please say because this will substantially affect their legal status.

They will almost certainly have a tenancy if:

a) they have exclusive possession of part of the premises e.g. a bedroom, perhaps with a lock on it, which they have control over and which you are not allowed to enter without their permission
b) they pay rent and
c) their is a period to their occupancy e.g. they pay rent weekly or monthly and
d) you do not provide any additional special services such as cleaning or cooking and
e) there was an intention to create legal relations between you.

From what you have said, my guess is that b, c and e above apply; you will need to give more information about a and d to be sure on these.

If the individual is a tenant then you must give notice to them and this must be at least four weeks, ending on the last day of a period of the tenancy. This need not be in writing, but it is a good idea to give it in writing.

If they are a licencee, then you need only give reasonable notice. Unfortunately, there is no clear definition of what would constitute a reasonable period. However, if this is their home and unless you have a very compelling to get them out immediately, my guess is that notice to leave by tomorrow morning would not be considered reasonable by a court.

So, be very careful and maybe seek more advice if you are unsure.

Preston

Is the 4 weeks minimum notice you speak of from "The Protection from Eviciton ACt" ?

In which case it will not apply to a "tenant" if the tenant shares occupation with a LL within the house, as I understand it. Tenants are excluded from the act if they share with LL even though bedroom may be their own.

[Preston]

Is the 4 weeks minimum notice you speak of from "The Protection from Eviciton ACt" ?

In which case it will not apply to a "tenant" if the tenant shares occupation with a LL within the house, as I understand it. Tenants are excluded from the act if they share with LL even though bedroom may be their own.

No, the minimum period in the OP's case was a month because that it what it said in his agreement - for some reason when I first wrote the reply I thought he had said the rent was payable four weekly, but I corrected this in post #6.

I agree with you, that for excluded tenancies there is no four week minimum. For excluded tenancies, unless the agreement says otherwise, notice must must be at least the length of the tenancy period and end on the first or the last day of the period.

Preston

[Bel]

Hi again Preston

For excluded tenancies, unless the agreement says otherwise, notice must must be at least the length of the tenancy period and end on the first or the last day of the period.

Preston

Is this common law 'rules'? or on what basis can this be demanded if the agreement is silent?

[Preston]

Hi again Preston
Is this common law 'rules'? or on what basis can this be demanded if the agreement is silent?

Hi

Yes, the rules governing a landlord's notice to quit an excluded tenancy are based on the common law, (whereas notices for non excluded tenancies are governed both by the common law and by section 5 of the Protection from Eviction Act 1977).

The notice to quit, then, must give whatever period of notice is required by the contract or if the agreement is silent on the matter, at least one full period of the tenancy ending on the first or the last day of a period (except that for a yearly tenancy only six months notice is required). There have been many cases dealing with notice provisions over the years, but these include Newman v Slade (1926) and Harley v Calder (1989). Technically speaking, a notice quit issued under the common law does not have to be in writing (Ahearn v Bellman, 1879) although it is clearly advisable to put it in writing. Incidentally, the contract can specify a period which is shorter than a period of the tenancy, but it must be clear on this point to be effective.

Notice to quit non excluded tenancies must comply within any relevant term in the tenancy and with section 5 of the Protection from Eviction Act which requires that the notice be in writing and specifies a minimum period of four weeks notice, (or a period of the tenancy, whichever is the greater).

Notice to determine excluded licences must comply with the contract or, if there are no contractual provisions, it must give reasonable notice (Minister of Health v Bellotti 1944). If the contract specifies an unreasonably short period of notice, then any notice issued will not be valid until a reasonable period has passed. Again, it need not be in writing. There are no set rules on what constitutes a reasonable period, but such factors as the length of the occupancy and the periods of the occupancy will be relevant.

Notice to determine a non excluded licence must also comply with section 5 of the Protection from Eviction Act (minimum 4 week period, in writing, etc).

Hope this makes sense.

Preston

[mandarin]

Renting place to brother - he gets a lodger. Contrct needed?

Hi there.

I am renting a 3 bedroom maisonette to my brother (a place that I will be in a couple of days a week but is not my main home) and I will put together a basic contract for this.

However, he wants to get a lodger. I am fine with this, but (1) do I need to get a contract with the lodger? (2) Or can I leave this to my brother in which case (3) does he need to get the lodger to sign a written contract or is it less formal than this?

The aim of this is IF there are any problems with the lodger who I do not know I can cancel the agreement. I have no intention of doing this but would like the security. The tax isues will be upto my brother - I jut want the rent i've agreed with my brother.

Many thank for any advice - lodging is new to me!

[jta]

If your brother is the tenant then he will be the LL of the lodger. Lodgers have few rights and can usually be asked to leave with little notice.

[jeffrey]

mandarin: jta is right, but only if you're (1) letting the whole house to your brother.

An alternative (2) would be to let:
a. part to brother; and
b. rest to the third party, as your own T (rather than brother's lodger).

Which does brother prefer, (1) or (2)?

[mandarin]

Thanks both

Jeffrey, I think I will go with (1) as I want to keep my brothers relationship with his lodger separate, and besides i'm renting to my brother at a low rent value as he is very hard on money at present.

Rental tax-wise it will likely be the case that he claws back most of the rent he pays me from his lodger, but i'll leave that to him to decide. From my side I will just charge the rate I require for the whole property and leave anything else to him!

Many thanks

[smileypigface]

Lodger Woes

Hi, this is my first post and I'm not sure if I need advice or just want to run my situation past you guys and guage whether I'm justified in my reaction or need to get back in my box and get over myself

I am not new to having lodgers renting my spare room - I had the same lodger for 8 years in my previous house and we got along very well - although that was probably helped by the fact that I worked full time and also had a part-time pub job most evenings so we weren't actually in the house at the same time very much.

I have recently moved with my job and advertised my 2 spare rooms - the first lodger moved in at the beginning of December and signed an 'agreement' that I put together from an example I found on the internet and tailored it to meet my requirements.

So far with this person I have had the following issues:

Both rent payments to date have been late - the agreement says rent is due in first 5 working days of month - both months I have had to check my bank and chase the lodger to pay the rent - the payments have arrived on 15th and then 14th of the two months so far.

I stated before he moved in that the 4th (small) bedroom could be for shared storage and occasional overnight guests as there is a single bed in there. On the day he moved in I said it was OK to stack his boxes in there while he unpacked and moved stuff into his room - he has actually partially unpacked the boxes he put in there but spread the contents all around the room, on windowsills and bed - the bed has now disappeared under his stuff and the only floorspace left now has his airer with washing on it - there are piles of his clothes all around the room too.

In the days before the 2nd lodger moved in I cleaned her room in readiness and on opening the fitted wardrobe found that Lodger 1 had stacked more of his (full) boxes in that wardrobe - he hadn't asked permission to use that room. I moved his boxes to the bottom of his stairs (he is on top floor of town house) where they remained for 2 weeks - then one night I noticed they had gone - I then nearly fell over them as he had moved them 3 feet in total and put them on the turn of the stairs - these are stairs I have to use as my bathroom is on the top floor of the house.

His room is an absolute pigsty and stinks, the floor is not visible for clothes, papers, books etc spread across the floor - I accept this is essentially his business as long as does not cause damage to my furniture etc.

I went to put some rubbish in the bin to find he had put several plastic bags of rubbish in the wheely bin (we have 2) for garden, food and cardboard waste instead of the other wheely bin which is for general refuse. The recycling collection won't empty the recycling bin if it contains plastic so I had to tip the bin up and lean in and remove his rubbish and put it in the correct bin. When I mentioned it to him he just said “oh, you have to blame my girlfriend for that, she was helping me clear out my stuff”! He said this as he walked away so I didn't reply – of course what I should have said was that actually as he is the lodger it's up to him to make sure his rubbish goes in the correct bin – I didn't wait for him to move the rubbish as he wasn't home when I discovered this, and the collection was due that morning.

I had been away for the weekend and returned last Sunday night to find the large window in his bedroom (front of house) was wide open - he did not return until Wednesday night - OK, so it's on the 3rd floor so would be difficult for a burglar to climb in - but I eventually went in and closed the window due to howling wind and driving rain - he said it must have blown open in the wind (it's a 4 year old house so we are talking a UPVC double glazed window)! I do not know if there is rain damage to the windowsill or window blind - he stereo probably got the worst of any rain blowing in as it is on the windowsill.

Whilst in his room closing the window I noticed he has turned off the extractor fan in his en-suite bathroom, he had also turned off the extractor in the main bathroom next door to his room - neither of these bathrooms have windows so it is quite essential that the extractors do their job - I turned them both back on and have told him they must remain on.

He works shifts and often gets home at 1 or 2 am - not a problem except for the fact that he leaves the lights on through the house on his way to bed - this often wakes me and I end up having to get out of bed to turn off the light on my landing as the light shines through the crack around my bedroom door and keeps me awake - as well as the fact that it's unnecessary expense - he pays an all inclusive rent including the electric!

He spends a lot of time at his girlfriend's house so rarely cooks in the kitchen - but every single time he has used the kitchen he hasn't left it how he found it - there is now a box of stuff he has left strewn on the worktops that myself and Lodger 2 have had to move in order to be able to cook our meals - he also doesn't bother wiping down the worktops so we have to wipe away his crumbs and mess before we can use the worktops.

He loaded the washing machine with his laundry and left it in the machine for a week and a half - in the end I had to ask him to unload it so I could put a wash on (I would have asked sooner had I needed the machine sooner).

It all came to a head last week when I came home for lunch to find I would again have to clear his stuff before I could cook my meal - I haven't seen him in person since New Year's Eve due to his shifts and either one or both of us being away - so I sent him a text to ask him if he was due home later as I would like him to return the kitchen to how he found it so I could cook my meal without having to tidy after him. He had washed up his plate and cutlery from his meal but left the baking tray in the oven all greasy from whatever he cooked too - he had emptied half the utensils drawer onto the worktop and there were crumbs everywhere.

Anyway, the exchange of text messages that followed ended with him telling me he is flat hunting anyway and will give me notice when he gets the keys to a new property - I had a long think about it and replied that there will be a letter at the house for him on Monday giving him a month's notice from 28 Jan and he needs to be out by 1800 on 28 Feb.

I am concerned that his rent will once again be late - he seems to think it was acceptable because it was his bank's fault the last two months - he had to ask for my bank details twice because he couldn't find them and just doesn't seem to acknowledge that he should be the one checking his account to make sure the money had gone on time rather than me being left to check my account every day and hasten him.

I am thinking of putting in the letter that his rent for February is due on the first working day of Feb (2nd) and that if the money is not in my account on that day then his notice period will be shortened to the end of that week and that I will expect him to be gone by 1800 that Sunday - (8th) - does this sound reasonable? He has already broken the 'agreement' in numerous ways, in terms of late rent, lack of consideration to other house occupants, allowed the possiblity of damage to the property by allowing rain entry and stopping bathroom steam being expelled via the extractor.

Apologies - this has turned into a right old rant ... I suppose I will look back and think it's quite funny in some ways .. once he's gone maybe!!!

Sorry for such a rambling and boring first post - any thoughts/comments/advice gratefully appreciated - if you haven't nodded off by now!!!

Feel better for getting it off my chest anyway!!!!!

[mind the gap]

Hi smileypigface (great name!)

Don't worry, you are not alone. Read this :

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ad.php?t=16327

Yours sounds like a selfish immature slob, too. You will be well rid of him. I don't know enough about the legality of shortening his notice period, but I'm sure others on the forum will advise.

I just wanted you to know that you have my sympathies.

Actually, he could be my 17 year old son...but I have to put up with him! Fortunately you don't have to put up with this monkey! When out worst (student) tenant (ever) moved out last year, I was sorely tempted to write to her mother and tell her what a hopeless job she had made of bringing up her daughter. (Never paid rent on time, damaged the furniture - broke bed & chest of drawers, burnt carpet, vomited on carpet, never cleaned her room but stayed in shower for hours on end...was rude and uncommunicative, told lies, had more clothes & shoes than Emelda Marcos and installed two extra wardrobes to accommodate them, so access to room severely restricted and hallway blocked...) I calmed down in the end and didn't write the letter - reasoning that the parent was unlikely to want to know, or unable to do anything about it. It would have made me feel better, in the short term, though.

[jta]

You have the patience of a saint!
As a lodger he has few rights, you seem to have been very fair, stick to your guns.

A suggestion for you though, why not put a timer switch on the landing lights? they can be adjusted to give the length of time needed to get up the stairs and open the door, it could save you a bit in the long run.

[smileypigface]

Thank you both for replying .... I'm impressed you made it to the end of my rant! Seriously, thanks.

jta I will definitely get a timer switch for the landing lights - great idea regardless of whether I have lodgers or not!

mind the gap, I can sympathise with your teenage son woes, and I could maybe understand some of the behaviours of the lodger if he wasn't actually a 45 year old man who, in my opinion, should know better!

Thanks again

[foxuk]

Problem with a lodger and refund deposit.

I need an urgent help advice please.

I am a landlord resident (tenant with agreement by my landlord to re-rent the rooms in the flat where I am living), and I had a lodger who gave me the notice last November 08.

He went back to his country for a holiday and during the notice period he started doing 'massage' business inside the property without my agreement, also I found out the website where he advertised his business.

According his working visa he couldn't do business and according our Lodger Agreement too.

The day he left I was at work and he did not give me the keys back, only his account number to refund his deposit. After check his room I found: the DVD and portable heating was broken, the bed I needed to fix, and the room was completely dirty that I expend 3 hours cleaning (he never dusted or cleaned the room).

When I called him asking for the keys he said does not know where the keys is, but for my surprise the keys was found inside the flat…

I didn’t refunded him awaiting his personal contact, now after 2 months I received an email from him asking me for the refund deposit; I replied and let he knew all the damages and what he did was unacceptable, that I wanted talk personally and not by email. I received his reply saying that was “invalid” the facts because I knew what he was doing and did not tell him anything, and asking me again for his deposit. I replied saying to him to contact me by phone make an appointment to discuss the matter personally.

How do I manage that situation please? What I can do?

[mind the gap]

I need an urgent help advice please.

I am a landlord resident (tenant with agreement by my landlord to re-rent the rooms in the flat where I am living), and I had a lodger who gave me the notice last November 08.

He went back to his country for a holiday and during the notice period he started doing 'massage' business inside the property without my agreement, also I found out the website where he advertised his business.

According his working visa he couldn't do business and according our Lodger Agreement too.

The day he left I was at work and he did not give me the keys back, only his account number to refund his deposit. After check his room I found: the DVD and portable heating was broken, the bed I needed to fix, and the room was completely dirty that I expend 3 hours cleaning (he never dusted or cleaned the room).

When I called him asking for the keys he said does not know where the keys is, but for my surprise the keys was found inside the flat…

I didn’t refunded him awaiting his personal contact, now after 2 months I received an email from him asking me for the refund deposit; I replied and let he knew all the damages and what he did was unacceptable, that I wanted talk personally and not by email. I received his reply saying that was “invalid” the facts because I knew what he was doing and did not tell him anything, and asking me again for his deposit. I replied saying to him to contact me by phone make an appointment to discuss the matter personally.

How do I manage that situation please? What I can do?

Please tell us :
How much deposit did he pay you?
How much has it cost you to replace/restore things he has damaged/left dirty?
Does he owe you money for anything else, e.g.rent/bills?

[Preston]

Hi,

Not sure I follow all the details, but I think there are two key questions:

a) what does your agreement say you are allowed to use the deposit for?

b) what exactly do you want to deduct from the deposit and why?

If (a) matches (b), you should be ok.

Preston