T in arrears- use Notices under s.8 or s.21 of 1988 Act?

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  • T in arrears- use Notices under s.8 or s.21 of 1988 Act?

    help with rent arrears

    hi people new to this forum and lettings really and looking for some advice/help, here is the picture so far, hop its not too long.

    1st months rent was paid to the agent

    2nd months rent was due to me on Dec 3rd, after much hard trying and many excuses paid on the 6th Jan with a promise of Jan 3rds rent on Jan 8th, though she had slipped into 2 months arrears thought would give her a week rather than serve the section 8.

    24 days on form the 3rd of Jan and I have had part payment of £100 a couple of weeks ago towards Jan's rent as claims wages cheque bounced but the rest I have not seen. As od today not a sign thats it coming soon either. Lots of stories/apprant lies from day one, cheques bouncing, solicitors acting on her behalf to claim back etc, just one thing after another.

    So on one hand i've got all theses stories and excuses which make me think she is just taking the mick and such a liar or she is trying her best in difficult circumstances, after all i've at least had some rent which perhaps if she was simply looking to not pay I would have had none!

    At present claiming to have no money at all, waiting for loan, soon as she has I will get the rent etc etc

    supposedly Feb's rent will not be a problem as her wages should be paid into her bank on the 7th by her new employer (the rent is due on the 3rd but I have agreed to take it on the 8th the day after she gets paid,)I have not sent letters claiming outstanding rent but have sent messages originally saying rent must be paid on the 6th and 8th of Jan or further action must be taken, part of which has been paid.

    So, some may say get her out straight away, some may say give her time as she's made some effort to apy something, comments please.

    Also, the section 8 seems to be my best way to evict as the 6 month lease does not end until April. Does she HAVE to be in 2 months arrears for me to serve this (i dont think she does if i calim under section 10 or 11 but not sure)? If Feb 3rd comes around and she hasnt paid all of Jan's rent and is back in 2 months arrears I'm thinking giving her until Feb 8th to clear things as she says she is paid on the 8th, so if nothing paid by the 8th I can serve this notice, so what is the correct procedure of doing this?

    but, is she settles say Jan's rent but another problem with Feb then she slipd back to 1 months in arrears, does this mean I can't serve this notice? (but as mentioned above mayb i can claiming section 10/11.

  • #2
    Way too long. Please summarise!
    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

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    • #3
      any better?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by tubbs View Post
        Also, the section 8 seems to be my best way to evict as the 6 month lease does not end until April. Does she HAVE to be in 2 months arrears for me to serve this (i dont think she does if i calim under section 10 or 11 but not sure)? .
        The two month thing applies to Ground 8. Grounds 10 & 11 both are probably better for your situation really. In that 11 basically means you have failed to recieve payment on time on more than one occassion.
        [I]The opinions I give are simply my opinions and interpretations of what I have learnt, in numerous years as a property professional, I would not rely upon them without consulting with a paid advisor and providing them with all the relevant facts[I]

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tubbs View Post
          Also, the section 8 seems to be my best way to evict as the 6 month lease does not end until April. Does she HAVE to be in 2 months arrears for me to serve this?
          No, she has to have two months' rent unpaid- not the same thing. Search for other LZ threads re section 8, if you need more.
          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MrJohnnyB View Post
            The two month thing applies to Ground 8. Grounds 10 & 11 both are probably better for your situation really. In that 11 basically means you have failed to recieve payment on time on more than one occassion.
            so even if i do get paid eventually for Jan and say even get Febs on the 8th as agreed I can still issue notice to evict under the grounds that she's constantly paying late then? though guess its not as clear cut getting the eviction notice if she's up to date though?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by tubbs View Post
              so even if i do get paid eventually for Jan and say even get Febs on the 8th as agreed I can still issue notice to evict under the grounds that she's constantly paying late then? though guess its not as clear cut getting the eviction notice if she's up to date though?
              Well, it's not a "Notice to Evict"; but, yes, you can still use [discretionary] grounds 10/11 in your s.8 Notice.
              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

              Comment


              • #8
                NB grounds 10 and 11 are discretionary - so you would have to convince the judge its right for her to be evicted. The judge could exercise his/her discretion and allow T to stay.

                Ground 8 is a mandatory ground so as long as the tenant does not clear the arrears to less than 2 months rent the court has no discretion and must award possession.

                It might be worth waiting a short period so that ground 8 is available - otherwise you are at the mercy of the judge
                PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

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                • #9
                  thanks for the advice ppl, 3rd of feb is when she would be 2 months in arrears, but i've already accepted to take her rent on the 8th after she's paid at her new job so I will wait until the 8th to see if febs is paid, by then hopefully i will have jans rent anyway.

                  if nothing by the 8th and she IS in 2 months then I will have to act, although i was advised by an agent to just serve section 21 which would come into force on the 3rd of May, they said this should be quicker to get rid of them than go down the section 8 route in february, and after reading a few threads in here the section 8 could take a long time. would anyone concur to simply issue the section 21 and hope to get some more rent before she leaves?

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                  • #10
                    Yes, there is nothing to prevent you issuing a section 21 notice to expire when the fixed term ends and potentially have it running along with a section 8 notice. Make sure you get the dates correct on the section 21 notice.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tubbs View Post
                      thanks for the advice ppl, 3rd of feb is when she would be 2 months in arrears, but i've already accepted to take her rent on the 8th after she's paid at her new job so I will wait until the 8th to see if febs is paid, by then hopefully i will have jans rent anyway.

                      if nothing by the 8th and she IS in 2 months then I will have to act, although i was advised by an agent to just serve section 21 which would come into force on the 3rd of May, they said this should be quicker to get rid of them than go down the section 8 route in february, and after reading a few threads in here the section 8 could take a long time. would anyone concur to simply issue the section 21 and hope to get some more rent before she leaves?
                      Keep in mind the difference between "in arrears" and "unpaid". They are NOT the same!
                      See http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ad.php?t=15964 for chapter and verse.
                      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
                        Keep in mind the difference between "in arrears" and "unpaid". They are NOT the same!
                        See http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...ad.php?t=15964 for chapter and verse.
                        thanks for that, i keep saying arrears when in actual fact it would be 'upaid' so i should be ok, only once you suffer problems are your eyes opened up to the tangled web of tenancy agreements, well it seems that way to me anyway.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Rent unpaid- use s.8 or s.21 Notice procedure?

                          hi ppl,

                          about 11.5 weeks to run on an AST with T approx 1.75 months rent in arrears, after reading various things i'm just considering serving the s21 as this may come up quicker than a court appearance for the s8 and may be easier to get pos back.

                          1st point is what happens when the AST runs out and the s21 becomes active? can i simply go into the house and claim pos myself? maybe change the locks if for some reason T refuses to move out? or will this be a lenghty process like the s8 route to evict, i.e. 2 months for a court hearing etc. so in reality its not perhaps quicker than the s8 route.

                          2nd point is in terms of recovering the rent arrears does one route (s8 or s21) make it easier to reclaim money or are both pretty much relying on the small claims court/ccj route? which in theory sound good but in practice may be a waste of time.

                          3rd is it easy to make sure i get the deposit from the letting agents to cover unpaid rent.

                          thought/comments appreciated.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            when the fixed period within the tenancy expires the tenancy automatically reverts to being a statutory periodic tenancy.

                            To evict the tenant you need to serve either a s21 notice or a s8 notice (if you have grounds)

                            Once the required time has elapsed you cannot just walk into the property - You will need to issue court proceedings to recover possession. If you have served a s21 notice you can use the accelerated procedure.

                            If you use the accelerated procedure you cannot claim for rent arrears - if you want to do this you need to commence a normal part 8 claim (form N5 from the court) You should think whether it is economically viable before you risk throwing good money after bad - do you have a guarantor?

                            When did the tenants move in? Their deposit should be protected!!!
                            PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paul Gibbs View Post
                              when the fixed period within the tenancy expires the tenancy automatically reverts to being a statutory periodic tenancy.

                              To evict the tenant you need to serve either a s21 notice or a s8 notice (if you have grounds)

                              Once the required time has elapsed you cannot just walk into the property - You will need to issue court proceedings to recover possession. If you have served a s21 notice you can use the accelerated procedure.

                              If you use the accelerated procedure you cannot claim for rent arrears - if you want to do this you need to commence a normal part 8 claim (form N5 from the court) You should think whether it is economically viable before you risk throwing good money after bad - do you have a guarantor?

                              When did the tenants move in? Their deposit should be protected!!!
                              thanks paul

                              normal part 8 claim, is this the same as section 8 claim? yes i will have grounds as rent not paid and rent always late.

                              so ur saying if I issue the s21 only and wait for that date to seek pos then i cant claim for unpaid rent fullstop? even when theyve left say in the claims court etc?

                              i've reluctant to get a solicitor involved for the added costs especially if they cant be recovered, hence the s21, hope to get as much rent as i can from them before they leave, read £1000 somewhere, could do the sec8 myself but of course as a newbie very caucious

                              unf there is no guarantor, T moved in on the 3rd Nov, the agent has their deposit, I'm pretty certain it is protected as i could have done that myself but they said they could hold it, its a big chain agent. should i be able to at least keep this relativley easy as payment towards unpaid rent.

                              so, if the T did not move out after the s21 it could then take 2 months or so to get rid, so perhaps not quicker than sec8, but in theory they should move out after the 6 months, whether they've paid rent or not, not sure if that means they would stay in or just move on.

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