Is one tenant's Guarantor liable for other co-tenant?

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    #16
    Originally posted by jta View Post
    If the original pair were joint tenants, wouldn't the leaving of one have ended the tenancy then and there?
    Not if it was during the fixed term.
    Thereafter, the departure of one of the two would also not itself end the Tenancy UNLESS the departee served on L a Notice to Quit. That Notice would bind both the departee and the continuing resident, so L might then re-let tothe latter alone (thereby ending G's liability too).
    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

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      #17
      My understanding is as follows: -

      N and S move in on 10.10.2007 under and AST (is this for 6 or 12 months?). The guarantee you signed was on or around Oct 07 and the narrative of it has been posted by you.

      If R and N signed a new agreement after S left and you did not sign that new guarantor form then you are not liable.

      If R and N never signed a new agreement you can still argue a new tenancy came into existence - eg an oral agreement - this would depend on what actually happened.

      I agree with Preston that you are not responsible and write to LL saying this and the reason why - let them show you how they believe that you are liable for this.

      NB under the guarantee you did sign you can be liable for any rent arrears up to the date R moved in and new tenancy came into effect
      PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

      Comment


        #18
        N + R did not sign but ...

        Preston, Paul, Jeffrey and jta

        Thanks for helping me to get deeper into this. I've now spoken again with nephew (most conversation we have had for ages) and can tell you that:
        • The original lease did start on the 10th Oct 2007 as I had recalled. That was when N + S moved in.
        • There is no outstanding rent from the original lease.
        • The agency has changed £300 for a changeover fee. N seems to think that this was about the new tenancy
        • But N cannot recall himself or R signing the new tenancy agreement.
        • S did not (as far as N is aware) serve any notice to quit. He left before the original lease expired and R started paying rent in his place. Rather erratically.


        I would by now (if I were the LL reading this) be wondering whether this agency has been doing much. It charged £300 for the changeover, but the tenancy agreement is unsigned two months in and there is only one signed-on guarantor (if R's mother has signed).

        My question is: Does the lack of a signed agreement with N+R mean that the original N+S agreement stands? Which would be a problem as he is overseas and R is the tenant in his place.

        I'm proposing to write to the agents stating that as far as I am aware the tenancy that I was acting as guarantor for has now come to an end (i.e. the one where the tenant was N+S). I was thinking that I would also say that I would be happy to guarantee N's part of the rent if this arrangement could be made. Or should I leave that part out?

        Help so far really appreciated. I feel that the end and a reasonable resolution is now in sight (fingers crossed). Really impressed with how well this forum is working and so happy I found it.

        Chris

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          #19
          If N+R are occupying, and L is receiving (or at least has received) rent from them, that's fairly good evidence that the old tenancy ended and a new- different one- began. Remember that a Tenancy Agreement does not need to be in writng- it can be oral yet still binding. If so, any guarantor under the old tenancy has no further liability.
          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
            If N+R are occupying, and L is receiving (or at least has received) rent from them, that's fairly good evidence that the old tenancy ended and a new- different one- began.
            That is the case. R has paid some rent although he's defaulted on the last month and judging by past form may not pay this month.

            I wish that I could guarantee N without tangling with R. Although perhaps I should just feel grateful that I am well out of it? Its been an eye-opening experience and fully vindicated my husband's doubts about my signing the initial agreement.

            Thanks again.

            Chris

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Chris_PD View Post
              That is the case. R has paid some rent although he's defaulted on the last month and judging by past form may not pay this month.

              I wish that I could guarantee N without tangling with R. Although perhaps I should just feel grateful that I am well out of it? Its been an eye-opening experience and fully vindicated my husband's doubts about my signing the initial agreement.

              Thanks again.

              Chris
              why guarantee N? If he needs assistance can you not just loan him the money? N is then liable to repay you, but you are not liable for R. Bear in mind if R and N are joinly liable then if R fails to pay then LL can go after N in any event
              PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Paul Gibbs View Post
                why guarantee N? If he needs assistance can you not just loan him the money? N is then liable to repay you, but you are not liable for R. Bear in mind if R and N are joinly liable then if R fails to pay then LL can go after N in any event
                Well that would be a good arrangement from my point of view. I was all this time assuming that because the letter says that no guarantor = no tenancy then he _has_ to have one. But perhaps if his record is okay with them then they will overlook this? If there is only R's mum as guarantor then I suspect she would be the solvent one (of her + N + R) to go after if the rent was not paid. I'll take care of N's debts should any arise (or his Mum and Dad will). Unfortunately their employment is not such that they can guarantee which is where I come in.

                BTW I am rating this thread as excellent. Its delivered far more help than I could have expected and I hope that the advice here helps others too.

                Thanks yet again.

                Chris

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Chris_PD View Post
                  Well that would be a good arrangement from my point of view. I was all this time assuming that because the letter says that no guarantor = no tenancy then he _has_ to have one. But perhaps if his record is okay with them then they will overlook this? If there is only R's mum as guarantor then I suspect she would be the solvent one (of her + N + R) to go after if the rent was not paid. I'll take care of N's debts should any arise (or his Mum and Dad will). Unfortunately their employment is not such that they can guarantee which is where I come in.

                  BTW I am rating this thread as excellent. Its delivered far more help than I could have expected and I hope that the advice here helps others too.

                  Thanks yet again.

                  Chris
                  LL's letter may have said to you that no guarantor = no tenancy but if he then allows N to stay and allows R to move in, and then accepts rent from both of them then there is a tenancy irrespective of whether LL wants this or not. In those circumstances he cannot try to enforce the contractual terms against you as a guarantor as he has failed to protect his position (by correctly making you a guarantor).
                  PAUL GIBBS, solicitor, Jacobs & Reeves. My comments on this forum are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. No responsibility or liability is accepted by reason of reliance upon such comments. This disclaimer would not apply to direct clients of Jacobs & Reeves where there is a valid retainer in place and I would be happy to confirm any advice if formally instructed. . Jacobs & Reeves now offer a fixed fee possession service.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    A good resolution - for me

                    Update. As suggested I wrote a polite letter to the agents asking for them to clarify the position for me - i.e. I did not think that I was guarantor for this tenancy even though I was for the first tenancy. Letter now received in response confirmng that I am no longer the guarantor and asking that I sign the form to remedy this.

                    I do not propose to do that. For me this is a good resolution although I suspect that my nephew is by now regretting his choice of joint tenant and we may all end up paying for that error of judgement. But this way at least we get to choose to pay.

                    Thanks for the very useful advice along the way. I will steer well clear of being a guarantor for a joint tenancy in the future.

                    Chris

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Chris_PD View Post
                      Letter now received in response confirmng that I am no longer the guarantor and asking that I sign the form to remedy this.
                      I do not propose to do that.

                      Chris
                      I love that bit.
                      I offer no guarantee that anything I say is correct. wysiwyg

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                        #26
                        What a bunch of muppets the agency are!!! As if you are going to stand knowing the situation!
                        GOVERNMENT HEALTH WARNING: I am a woman and am therefore prone to episodes of PMT... if you don't like what I have to say you can jolly well put it in your pipe and SMOKE IT!!

                        Oh and on a serious note... I am NOT a Legal person and therefore anything I post could be complete and utter drivel... but its what I have learned in the University called Life!

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I don't like agents much, it's great to hear when stuff like this happens!!! From personal experience, it seems they get paid an extortionate amount to make a hash of everything...and if you want them to repeatedly hash things up, they'll charge renewal fees for the privilege!

                          *EDIT* Forgot to say congratulations !

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Letter now received in response confirmng that I am no longer the guarantor and asking that I sign the form to remedy this.[/QUOTE]



                            Originally posted by Chris_PD View Post
                            I will steer well clear of being a guarantor for a joint tenancy in the future.
                            Do not sign any guarantee without taking legal advice. Please!

                            Oh and if you do chose to help your nephew out and make any payment to the agent make it quite clear that the payment is entirely voluntary.

                            Comment

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