Is s.21 Notice invalid if L and T negotiate new letting?

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    Is s.21 Notice invalid if L and T negotiate new letting?

    I'm trying to avoid future problems and am hoping someone can clarify Section 21 rules (they are beyond my little brain)

    If a section 21 is issued at the beginning of the tenancy and near the end of the 12 month agreement eg 2 months before, the LL agree to new contract for the next 12 months but then two weeks before end of current contract changes mind and tells us to leave, would that mean that in effect we would only have two weeks notice to vacate.

    Thanks

    #2
    Well strictly speaking yes, your landlord has already served you will a (I'm assuming valid) section 21 notice. so you should vacate the property at the expiry of the notice.
    But LL can’t force you to leave the property. He would need a possession order from court. The process would take him 4-6 weeks. So effectively you have up to that point to leave the property.

    Comment


      #3
      I think somewhere that i have read that if any negotiations have been entered into for a new contract the sectin 21 becomes invalid. Can anyone confirm or deny this, I may have this wrong as i have been doing so much internet research that my head is in a whirl

      Thanks
      Last edited by emmerson; 05-12-2008, 15:42 PM. Reason: spelling mistake, like I said in a whirl (or going insane)

      Comment


        #4
        Don’t think this is correct. But hopefully someone should soon confirm this for you.

        Comment


          #5
          Found the thread where I read this

          http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/for...pic=50262&st=0

          Hope it's OK to post this please remove if not and i apologise in advance

          Comment


            #6
            Hi,

            This is a really interesting point - whether a section 21 is invalidated by negotiations - and I too would be very interested if anyone knows of any case law on the issue. I have certainly never known it used as a successful defence.

            However, although I may well be proven wrong, I dont think it is quite correct. The issue I think is whether there has been an agreement reached for a further term - be it fixed or periodic - and not simply that negotiations have been commmenced. The full terms of the agreement need not necessarily have been concluded - an agreement for a lease is as good as a lease - but the the issue as to whether the landlord intended to offer and the tenant intended to accept an extension cannot be in question.

            Anyway, could be wrong so would look forward to other views.

            Preston

            Comment


              #7
              Thanks for that point, I would have taken it to mean negotiations not an agreement. So basically what we need to do if the LL agrees to a further term is get this in writing at least 4 weeks befor the end of the contract so that if she pulls out we still have time to find somewhere else.

              Thanks

              Comment


                #8
                I cannot see any justification for the view that negotiations for a new tenancy invalidate a S 21 notice.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I've taken this from one of Pain Smith's seminars, although not verbatim.

                  A S.21 Notice must be unequivocal and without reservation as it is a Notice Seeking Possession. If the landlord then offers the tenant a new tenancy without first having received a request from the tenant beforehand to negotiate a new fixed term, then it could be deemed to be voiding the S.21 as a result. It means the landlord at his own behest has instigated negotiations to treat, which then probably makes the S.21 Notice 'with reservation'.
                  The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
                    I've taken this from one of Pain Smith's seminars, although not verbatim.

                    A S.21 Notice must be unequivocal and without reservation as it is a Notice Seeking Possession. If the landlord then offers the tenant a new tenancy without first having received a request from the tenant beforehand to negotiate a new fixed term, then it could be deemed to be voiding the S.21 as a result. It means the landlord at his own behest has instigated negotiations to treat, which then probably makes the S.21 Notice 'with reservation'.
                    Thanks Paul.

                    If I was a tenant in that situation I would certainly put that point forward to defend against the S21 with the intention being to gain more time to arrange moving. This so called Sword of Damocles is a right pain as if having to move in a hurry a tenant does not have time to secure a good deal on their next property and more or less has to take any old crap going.
                    ~~~~~

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by SALL View Post
                      Well strictly speaking yes, your landlord has already served you will a (I'm assuming valid) section 21 notice. so you should vacate the property at the expiry of the notice.
                      But LL can’t force you to leave the property. He would need a possession order from court. The process would take him 4-6 weeks. So effectively you have up to that point to leave the property.
                      Well strictly speaking yes, but that isn't going to make a tenant's references look good is it? What landlord here would let to a tenant whose reference from the old landlord said they didn't leave on time and a possession order from court had to be obtained?

                      This is why I think landlords who operate the Sword of Damocles should be avoided.
                      ~~~~~

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
                        I've taken this from one of Pain Smith's seminars, although not verbatim.

                        A S.21 Notice must be unequivocal and without reservation as it is a Notice Seeking Possession. If the landlord then offers the tenant a new tenancy without first having received a request from the tenant beforehand to negotiate a new fixed term, then it could be deemed to be voiding the S.21 as a result. It means the landlord at his own behest has instigated negotiations to treat, which then probably makes the S.21 Notice 'with reservation'.
                        Hi

                        Interesting, I can certainly see the point. I think you would need good evidence of the invitation to treat, but I think I would give this one a go as well if I really needed to. Would be even better though if there is some case law to back it up.

                        Preston

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
                          A S.21 Notice must be unequivocal and without reservation as it is a Notice Seeking Possession. If the landlord then offers the tenant a new tenancy without first having received a request from the tenant beforehand to negotiate a new fixed term, then it could be deemed to be voiding the S.21 as a result. It means the landlord at his own behest has instigated negotiations to treat, which then probably makes the S.21 Notice 'with reservation'.
                          Having regard to the wording of the statute, I cannot see that there is any justification for this view.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            It's not my personal view but that of prominent housing specialist solicitors as I understand it, but don't mind anyone disagreeing.
                            The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Paul_f View Post
                              I've taken this from one of Pain Smith's seminars, although not verbatim.

                              A S.21 Notice must be unequivocal and without reservation as it is a Notice Seeking Possession. If the landlord then offers the tenant a new tenancy without first having received a request from the tenant beforehand to negotiate a new fixed term, then it could be deemed to be voiding the S.21 as a result. It means the landlord at his own behest has instigated negotiations to treat, which then probably makes the S.21 Notice 'with reservation'.
                              Once again, a rather, shall we say, unusual view of the law.

                              I just wish there was a "shaking head in wry, semi-amused disbelief" emoticon available on this forum.

                              Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                              Having regard to the wording of the statute, I cannot see that there is any justification for this view.
                              Seconded.
                              Health Warning


                              I try my best to be accurate, but please bear in mind that some posts are written in a matter of seconds and often cannot be edited later on.

                              All information contained in my posts is given without any assumption of responsibility on my part. This means that if you rely on my advice but it turns out to be wrong and you suffer losses (of any kind) as a result, then you cannot sue me.

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