My s.21 Notice was held to be invalid- help!

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    My s.21 Notice was held to be invalid- help!

    Hi,

    I have been having difficulties with my tenants their contract (AST) expired on 14th april 2008 and turned into a periodic tenancy. They were always late in paying the rent so i issued a s21. As follows:

    HOUSING ACT 1988 SECTION 21 (4) (a)

    ASSURED SHORTHOLD TENANCY: NOTICE REQUIRING POSSESSION: FIXED TERM TENANCY



    TO: Name of tenant

    OF: Address of rental property

    FROM: Name of landlord


    OF: Address of landlord


    I give you notice that I require possession of the dwelling house known as: Address of rental property


    AFTER: 13th August 2008


    OR ON THE LAST DAY OF A PERIOD OF THE TENANCY NEXT OCCURRING.

    DATED THE: 10th June 2008


    The 13 aug came and went and the tenants still didnt move out so i went down the accelerated procedure route, i just got the response from the district judge today who said he/she had struck this claim for a possesion order out. I then filled in a n244 form to try and get the possession order reinstated i am awaiting feedback on this and wont hear from them until next week. This is what the district judge said in his letter:

    "The notice of 10th June 2008 is defective because it specifies 13 august 2008 or _ the last day of a period of the tenancy next occuring". The said last day would have been 13 june 2008. The notice thus specifies two different dates, and does not state which is to prevail".

    I am really confused, have i filled in the s21 form incorrectly ?? Can anybody pls help me or advise me?? What can i do next?

    Many thanks

    #2
    You should use the S21(4)(b) notice to end a periodic tenancy.
    From the detail given, the tenancy started on the 15th day of (unspecified) month and ended on the 14th of April. The period of the tenancy is therefore the 15th of one month to the 14th of the next month.
    You should word your notice so that you require possession after the last day of a period of the tenancy ie. after the 14th day of the month.
    Unfortunately you will have to start again using the correct form and this time the earliest date you can require possession will be after the 14th of December.
    You may be able to obtain possession more quickly if your tenants are seriously in arrears ie. at least two months rent unpaid.

    Comment


      #3
      Hi,

      I have been having difficulties with my tenants their contract (AST) expired on 13th april 2008 and turned into a periodic tenancy. They were always late in paying the rent so i issued a s21. As follows:

      HOUSING ACT 1988 SECTION 21 (4) (a)

      ASSURED SHORTHOLD TENANCY: NOTICE REQUIRING POSSESSION: PERIODIC TENANCY



      TO: Name of tenant

      OF: Address of rental property

      FROM: Name of landlord


      OF: Address of landlord


      I give you notice that I require possession of the dwelling house known as: Address of rental property


      AFTER: 13th August 2008


      OR ON THE LAST DAY OF A PERIOD OF THE TENANCY NEXT OCCURRING.

      DATED THE: 10th June 2008


      The 13 aug came and went and the tenants still didnt move out so i went down the accelerated procedure route, i just got the response from the district judge today who said he/she had struck this claim for a possesion order out. I then filled in a n244 form to try and get the possession order reinstated i am awaiting feedback on this and wont hear from them until next week. This is what the district judge said in his letter:

      "The notice of 10th June 2008 is defective because it specifies 13 august 2008 or _ the last day of a period of the tenancy next occuring". The said last day would have been 13 june 2008. The notice thus specifies two different dates, and does not state which is to prevail".

      I am really confused, have i filled in the s21 form incorrectly ?? Can anybody pls help me or advise me?? What can i do next?

      Many thanks
      Last edited by bhurinder; 19-09-2008, 21:18 PM. Reason: Errors corrected in red - apologies

      Comment


        #4
        What!

        Have you been on the beers on a friday night John? A S1b is for a fixed term and this seems quite clearly to be a SPAST.

        I don't have the answer for the OP but if the rent date was 14th and they served notice seeking possesion after 13th with two clear months I don't see the issue unless there is something wrong with the wording on the notice itself.

        I'm intrigued to see what exactly.

        Originally posted by johnjw View Post
        You should use the S21(4)(b) notice to end a periodic tenancy.
        From the detail given, the tenancy started on the 15th day of (unspecified) month and ended on the 14th of April. The period of the tenancy is therefore the 15th of one month to the 14th of the next month.
        You should word your notice so that you require possession after the last day of a period of the tenancy ie. after the 14th day of the month.
        Unfortunately you will have to start again using the correct form and this time the earliest date you can require possession will be after the 14th of December.
        You may be able to obtain possession more quickly if your tenants are seriously in arrears ie. at least two months rent unpaid.

        Comment


          #5
          This is the wording on the S21:



          HOUSING ACT 1988 SECTION 21 (4) (a)

          ASSURED SHORTHOLD TENANCY: NOTICE REQUIRING POSSESSION: PERIODIC TENANCY



          TO: Name of tenant

          OF: Address of rental property

          FROM: Name of landlord


          OF: Address of landlord


          I give you notice that I require possession of the dwelling house known as: Address of rental property


          AFTER: 13th August 2008


          OR ON THE LAST DAY OF A PERIOD OF THE TENANCY NEXT OCCURRING.

          DATED THE: 10th June 2008

          Comment


            #6
            I think this statement may be causing the problem

            OR ON THE LAST DAY OF A PERIOD OF THE TENANCY NEXT OCCURRING.

            Don't ask me why but it seems as though the judge has picked this up as making the the notice defective.
            Ambition is Critical

            I don't profess to be a knowledge in all areas, my advice is based on life experience.

            Comment


              #7
              Apologies;(as pointed out by Bunny) the notice should indeed be S21(4)(a) and not (b). - maybe the beer was to blame!
              Bhurinder, your second post changes the term fixed to periodic and the last day of the tenancy period from the 14th to the 13th of the month.
              I think the Judge was strictly correct in pointing out that "the last day of a period of the tenancy next occuring" would be 13th June, 2008. Clearly your notice meant to use a "catch all" safety term which says that if for any reason your date of 13th August, 2008 was unacceptable, then the next ACCEPTABLE last day of a period of the tenancy (presumably 13th September) should be used.
              The judge was being pedantic and ingenuous. He must have known that you couldn't have meant 13th of June to be the expiry date on your notice dated
              10th June. Unfortunately you can't appeal against this decision and I think you will have to start again with a notice to expire after the 13th of December.
              If the form you used is a standard printed form, I'm surprised the wording is such as to allow the judge's interpretation.

              Comment


                #8
                what if i issue an s8 ground 8 instead ? as they are over 2 months in arrears in rent. would this be doing quicker than starting over with an s21?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by bhurinder View Post
                  what if i issue an s8 ground 8 instead ? as they are over 2 months in arrears in rent. would this be doing quicker than starting over with an s21?
                  Yes, this should be quicker providing they remain 2 months in arrears when the case comes to court. Perhaps you can also add other non-mandatory grounds (persistent delay in paying, nuisance etc.), if these apply to your tenant.
                  You can still issue the S21 notice for possession after 13th December, just in case.
                  Good luck.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Don't like to put too finer point on this but it's a classic case of a landlord who doesn't know what they're doing, even when they are given decent advice on the forum. Use a solicitor!
                    The advice I give should not be construed as a definitive answer, and is without prejudice or liability. You are advised to consult a specialist solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      THANKS FOR THE USEFUL COMMENT PAUL IF YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING WORTH SAYING THEN DONT MAKE A COMMENT !!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Sorry bhurinder, but having read through this thread and the helpful information given to you and your responses, I would consider Paul's comments justified, and his advice to you to consult a solicitor for help is actually very good advice.
                        Mrs Jones
                        I am not an expert - my posts are my opinion and should not be taken as fact!!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by bunny View Post
                          don't have the answer for the OP but if the rent date was 14th and they served notice seeking possesion after 13th with two clear months I don't see the issue.
                          I'm joining this thread late, but surely the issue is re the dates. Do continuation tenancy months run 15th-14th or 14th-13th?
                          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Dates

                            I believe the OP qualified the dates in his second post to state the last day of the tenancy EDIT "period" was 13th. Thus it would appear the judge dislikes the statement

                            OR ON THE LAST DAY OF A PERIOD OF THE TENANCY NEXT OCCURRING. (as this is not qualified in any other way on the notice)

                            I think the OP would like advice on appealing this notice and whether there would be any chance of successfully appealing the judge's decision thus being able to gain possesion or whether to issue another (better worded S21a notice) as well as pursuing the S8 route grounds 8, 10 and 11.


                            Sorry for butting in! The notice he has used I am aware is in pretty wide circulation and has been used successfully by many other landlords.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Section 21

                              I firstly apologize for possibly misinterpreting the differences between Section 21 (A) and its counter part Section 21 (B). After down loading from Landlord zone the template for Section 21. I my self was given to the opinion that to terminate a tenancy with in its Assured Short hold Tenancy run, sort to speak, implementation of Section 21 (B) is advised.
                              The Section 21 (A) was only to be used when the AST had run its course (fixed term) and a replacement AST had not been drawn up between Tenant and Landlord. Hence by default changing the agreement into a Periodic Assured Short hold Tenancy - Housing Act 1988 section 21(4) a Statutory Periodic
                              But this goes against the advice given here advising (Mr. bhurinder). Clearly I am mistaken. Could you please check the Landlord zone the template for Section 21. And put me back on the right track.

                              Comment

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