Section 21 scrapped?

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    Section 21 scrapped?

    Hi,

    Anyone familiar or aware of this section 21 being scrapped? Is it true and is it "the biggest shake up in 30 years" as described in the link below?
    If it goes, what mechanisms will landlords have to try and get rid of me? Could they try to jack up the rent and boot me out for arrears? Claim they are moving in themselves or selling and then rent to someone else?

    Thanks in advance

    https://blog.goodlord.co/your-guide-...rs-reform-bill

    #2
    Yes, it's been in the Queen's speech, at the moment it hasn't been scrapped but will go (no date so far when), S8 will incorporate 1 - 3 additional grounds but this is still not confirmed. It's one of the many "shake up's" over the last 30 years, but this is most likely the final one to push a lot of LL's out of the PRS now.

    LL's are in the PRS for one reason, to earn an income, therefore they are not in it to turn away customers (T's are their customers), but unfortunately all the legislation which the Governments have placed on LL's has meant a number of them are leaving the market, and more to follow. A LL does not go into business to evict a T, it costs money and time, the majority of times it's because the T has breached the terms of the tenancy, rent arrears etc, they are now using the notices to now sell off their assets as they no longer want to be a LL.

    Comment


      #3
      Much as you seem not to think it, S21 was great for tenants in general.
      - It kept rents reasonably low
      - It made it possible for tenants with marginal records or non-typical finances to find somewhere to stay
      - It enabled normal contracting between intelligent adults, rational decisions about pets, children, shorter term tenancies, furnishings....

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by KathyS View Post
        If it goes, what mechanisms will landlords have to try and get rid of me? Could they try to jack up the rent and boot me out for arrears? Claim they are moving in themselves or selling and then rent to someone else?
        No one knows the details yet, so this response is mostly a guess.

        The changes are quite widespread and may have issues when people think them through.
        The idea is that all tenancies will be periodic from the first month, which probably means monthly and all rent increases would be formal and the tenant would be able to appeal to a tribunal if the rent is excessive.

        If the model follows Scotland, if a landlord evicts someone on the grounds they want to move in or sell the property and then doesn't, the evicted tenant can try and claim a penalty from the landlord.
        If the tenant believes that the landlord is not being honest about the reason for the eviction, they can try and defend it on that basis.

        From a tenant's perspective it's a bit of a double edged sword, because most tenants are more stressed about the possibility of being evicted for no reason than it actually happens (particularly outside of cities with high rents mostly in the South of England).
        But not being able to use section 21 will cause some landlords to move onto other things, which is going to keep rents high and probably rising and landlords are going to be much more diligent about the checks on prospective tenants and wanting months of rent in advance to reduce the additional risk of being stuck with a tenant that the don't want.

        The biggest downside for a landlord is if the tenant is anti social so it causes the landlord a problem (which is a huge issue in a flat) but isn't enough to bother the local authorities or the police. Someone who is noisy, smokes, smokes drugs or parks in someone else's space - that kind of thing.
        They might be impossible to evict.
        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
          The biggest downside for a landlord is if the tenant is anti social so it causes the landlord a problem (which is a huge issue in a flat) but isn't enough to bother the local authorities or the police. Someone who is noisy, smokes, smokes drugs or parks in someone else's space - that kind of thing.
          They might be impossible to evict.

          THIS, along with the possible EPC C are the two main reasons why when my tenants leave i will not be re-letting my properties and they will be sold, if the EPC C comes in before any tenant gives notice, then i will evict them and sell as planned.

          A lot of small landlords like myself think the same as me (i know a number locally who are planning along the same lines), this will be a disaster for tenants of the future, although on the surface the scrapping of S21 looks good for tenants........it just looks that way, in reality this is a very bad move.

          Comment


            #6
            In contrast to what jpkeates says, this issue (the inability to remove tenants who make lives of neighbours or other tenants a misery) is yet again another way in which the do-gooders are slamming tenants. It has relatively little impact on the Landlord (beyond damages obviously).

            Especially in HMOs with individual tenancies (and joint tenancies) which are the places where all the student suicides arise. But again who cares about that in Shelter (etc).

            It would seem an ideal eviction method anyway. Have two properties next to one another, and if one wishes to get rid of one tenant who is abusing their contract, just install an abusive violent rapist tenant next door (or in the same HMO) and then wring one's hands when asked to do anything about it. -- because that is what the government is wanting and asking landlords to do -- abuse people. Not nice.

            Comment


              #7
              There is already a Section 8 ground for dealing with anti-social tenants. Not that landlords in England have a responsibility to ensure their tenants are not a nuisance to the neighbours anyway.

              Even with a Section 21 in a HMO as it can take months to get the offending tenant out the good tenants move on asap anyway so as to get away from the bad tenant. I don’t see how removing the Section 21 will change that since there’s still the Section 8 on the table.

              You think do-gooders are to blame whilst I suspect it has more to do with those landlords and particularly the letting agencies who were dishing Section 21 notices out like Smarties with no intention of acting upon them. There was a time when tenants were receiving a Section 21 at the same time as signing the AST.

              Comment


                #8
                Except that ground 8 is never going to provide sufficient "grounds" for dealing with 99% of the abusive tenants we are talking about here. Those who threaten, make others at fear of rape, spit at neighbours, throw stuff into their gardens, scatter rubbish around, trespass. Yes some instances might be actionable, but most behaviour that seriously disrupts lives doesn't fall within the remit of the modern day policeman, let alone a S8 judge.

                And in any event it is easy for a caring landlord to get rid of a threatening HMO tenant via S21 (albeit slowly) -- S8 is a different ballpark altogether so why would they bother.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by DoricPixie View Post
                  There is already a Section 8 ground for dealing with anti-social tenants.
                  Having dealt with the victims of ASB, the one thing that shouts out in all the cases is the unwillingness for the tenants (victims) and witnesses to give a statement to the Police, and without this ' evidence' i doubt any court will convict, they are often very afraid and understand that the offender may still be their neighbour after the incidents and cause them even more stress and hassle. The ASB side of the white paper will (in time) be a real problem i feel for landlords and decent tenatns alike. This is why if (when) my excellent, long terms tenants leave i am not taking the chance...... so multiple BTL properties off the rental market to the benefit of the FTB market. I wonder when the penny will drop ??

                  Comment


                    #10
                    AndrewDod,

                    If I was living in a HMO and felt scared, feared for my life or another tenant threatened to rape me I wouldn’t be hanging around for the landlord to serve notice of any kind.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Hudson01,

                      We’re not talking about conviction though, we’re talking about a possession order.

                      You need to do what’s best for you and if you think selling up is the best course of action should the Section 21 be revoked then you gotta do what you gotta do.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Agree as landlords we have to balance risk/ reward to where we are in our life plan, but in terms of ASB, what burden of proof will the court need to grant an order ?? Just the word of the landlord, i think not ....... they will need more than that, a criminal conviction for assault (s39/47), criminal damage, any of the 3 main public order offences (4,4a,5) mg11 witness statements from other tenants/neighbours etc........ that is very diffuclt to get, i also deal with the local authority in the realm of ASB, and even with their vast resources it can take an age to get even the worse of ASB offenders out of the property, it is all down to the burden of proof, the courts will NOT evict someone without a lot of evidence. Getting it, is not easy.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Hudson01,

                          The wording of ground 14 is…

                          The tenant or a person residing in or visiting the dwelling-house—
                          (a) has been guilty of conduct causing or likely to cause a nuisance or annoyance to a person residing, visiting or otherwise engaging in a lawful activity in the locality, or
                          (b) has been convicted of—
                          (i) using the dwelling-house or allowing it to be used for immoral or illegal purposes, or
                          (ii) an indictable offence committed in, or in the locality of, the dwelling-house.
                          A criminal conviction isn’t necessarily necessary but it all helps. It is also a discretionary ground so currently it does make more sense to use the mandatory Section 21 route but who knows how the Section 8 might be beefed up should the Section 21 be withdrawn.

                          It is horrific to find yourself with anti-social neighbours and really effects your quality of life, something I have experienced first hand, but there are avenues open to those with anti-social neighbours. Not every anti-social neighbour is a tenant, plenty of owner-occupiers can be anti-social neighbours. I used to have a colleague, a horrible individual, who openly admitted to tormenting the neighbours next door.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I guess we will have to see how this beefed up legislation works, but by then the S21 is a distant memory, the section you quoted........'' (a) has been guilty of conduct causing or likely ............''

                            Its the word ' guilty' which is the key one here, how are they guilty and who decides that they are guilty ? As i have said before.... evidence, no one is guilty of anything without evidence, what will be needed and how will you get it.

                            It may turn out ok with the new super dooper S8, but anything the govt seem to get involved with tends to end up not being of benefit to the PRS. Time will tell.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I think landlords should consider the "risk" that the government is about to have to introduce a series of measures to address (or at least seem to address) the cost of living issue that's already seriously affecting a lot of people and will affect even more in the autumn.

                              Based on their record in the pandemic, where there were fears that the economy would collapse as we all stayed home, that could mean measures to alleviate homelessness.
                              Which a couple of years ago meant no evictions and much longer notice periods.

                              I'm not saying that I have any inkling what the government plans or might consider, but that's what happened last time they tried to address a similar issue.
                              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                              Comment

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