Sec 21 & Notice to Quit in same claim

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    Sec 21 & Notice to Quit in same claim

    I have a dodgy LL who issues Licences to occupy instead of tenancies. He knows he's on dodgy ground and has failed to get possession against a previous person because of it. He wants me out on a no fault basis (has called me a professional tenant for daring to get him to supply hot water and other things)! He's done the work so I'm not looking to claim retaliatory eviction.

    He's served a Notice to Quit and a Sec 21 to hedge his bets. He's got a court date and has included both notices in his claim. My question is this: can he combine/rely upon both/either on the same claim? He's argued his case on the licensee basis. The N2Q is invalid anyway. Can he then during the hearing switch to the Sec21 arguing the opposite of what he's pleaded in his particulars of claim (that I'm a licensee)? Is the Sec 21 really a separate claim for possession that should have been brought as a separate claim?

    #2
    Originally posted by Carly View Post
    Is the Sec 21 really a separate claim for possession that should have been brought as a separate claim?
    Yes, I think it should be a separate claim.
    You couldn't do that with a section 8 and a section 21 notice, for example.

    It's possible the court will allow it, though, if only because a Notice to Quit is a fairly loose process for the court.
    Hopefully they won't, if only because courts don't like people who try and bend the system.
    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

    Comment


      #3
      Without people manipulating the law the legal profession would face obsolescence-courts love it.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Carly View Post
        I have a dodgy LL who issues Licences to occupy instead of tenancies. He knows he's on dodgy ground and has failed to get possession against a previous person because of it. ....
        Indeed: Does he provide any services (meals, cleaning, laundry??) . Is this England?


        The key case is Street v Mountford see....
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_v_Mountford

        Does he live in the same building??

        Wonder what else he's fiddling (tax, wrong sort of - cheaper - mortgage etc etc etc...)

        Whichever he notice he uses i strongly suggest you appeal to court, point out other notice & background.

        Was there a mortgage?? (Claim for penalty)

        Shelter website & their helpline 0808 800 4444 great resources
        I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks for your reply. He doesn't live in or provide services etc. He uses a ltd co. registered in a tax haven - maybe a fiddle to avoid UK tax by saying the money received is a "licence fee" and not rent?

          He has a mortgage. What did you mean when you put "Claim for penalty"? Sorry to be thick!!

          Comment


            #6
            Also, the LL has made a spurious money claim saying I'm a trespasser and so liable for all sorts of costs. The Notice to Quit & Sec 21 are both definitely invalid (checked by Shelter). The money claim is for a huge amount. My questions are:

            1. If the possession claim fails as it should, what happens to the money claim?

            2. I'd prefer for the money claim to be judged as I think I can defeat it. Can I ask for this? (I haven't counterclaimed as despite having grounds, I've spent loads of time on the defence and haven't got time to put my claim against him together right now).

            3. On the defence form, do I have to say exactly why the notice is invalid? I don't want him to pull the claim if it's my chance to have his money claim demolished.

            All replies and help are massively appreciated :-)

            Comment


              #7
              I don't understand how the money claim and this possession claim are related or even structured.
              I don't think it's possible to answer without more information.
              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

              Comment


                #8
                It's all quite complicated. I was trying to keep it as simple as poss. I'm worried about identifying the LL as I think what he's doing is a first: he's using a property guardian licence to occupy but he's just a one man band LL. He owns a small estate and has an HMO building, flats and a few cottages. No tenancies given, just Licences I believe. He advertises on Spare room.com but doesn't say it's for guardians at all. He charges high, variable market rents and lets to families and all sorts (people who would never qualify as a p. guardians).

                Before he bought the estate, when it was up for sale, it was managed by a genuine PG company. He copied the idea from this. I was here under the first company as a bona fide Property Guardian and allowed to stay on after the current LL bought the place. He produced his own licence agreement but I didn't sign it. He lives on the estate, the lets are long term (some been here for yrs) and his ltd co is not a property management co. He uses a tenancy deposit scheme and Sec 21s to cover his arse yet insists people have no tenant rights. As there's no specific legislation for P. Guardian schemes, he thinks he's beaten the system. Any LL could potentially do this. Personally I think he's running a sham licence scheme.

                As I've had dispute with him before, he emailed to say he was trebling my rent/licence fee. This was only levied at me. I ignored him (as I've learnt to do over the years as he's always doing stuff like this. He then finds something/someone else to obsess about. He's a bit of a weirdo tbh). The property is pretty basic and the proposed increase was absurd - massively above market rates for similar.

                He's now alleging a huge amount of arrears. My defence uses the consumer rights act. He's also claiming for utilities and council tax (that are included in the rent) from the point the dodgy notice expired (August 2020) when he says I became a trespasser. I think he's deliberately pushed his claim over £25,000 to get it in the multi track to add costs. He thinks I've got lots of money and has put that in writing! He's also threatened to financially ruin me in writing. The hostilities all started when there were some serious repairs needed that he failed to do and I finally contacted environmental health. Also, he's a barrister and likes to intimidate with legal guff.

                Phew. Sorry it's so long. There's much more I've left out! If you're wondering why I've stayed, I've had a serious, ongoing illness (cancer). I'm not looking to stay long term & don't care if he gets possession that much, but I want to make sure he can't pursue me when I've gone.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Just to add, I've continued to pay the rent (at the sensible rate) throughout and have never missed a payment.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Carly View Post
                    Thanks for your reply. He doesn't live in or provide services etc. He uses a ltd co. registered in a tax haven - maybe a fiddle to avoid UK tax by saying the money received is a "licence fee" and not rent?

                    He has a mortgage. What did you mean when you put "Claim for penalty"? Sorry to be thick!!
                    Ah, so your contract is with Ltd co not the human??

                    Claim for penalty is that you can claim up to 3 times deposit if it ain't protected correctly. see how here......
                    https://england.shelter.org.uk/housi...ensation_claim

                    Were I in your shoes I'd claim on the basis it is an AST: But suing the Ltd company... (maybe sue company & human)

                    Are his s21 & NTQ signed by Ltd company (eg Fred Bloggs for Bloggs dodgy property) or as the human (eg Fred Bloggs). If just Fred Bloggs probably invalid.

                    Shelter 0808 800 4444 may be helpful (free but often a wait from this overworked charity).

                    Where does he live?? HMRC may be interested in his tax avoidance games...

                    Good luck.
                    I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Carly View Post
                      He owns a small estate and has an HMO building, flats and a few cottages. No tenancies given, just Licences I believe. He advertises on Spare room.com but doesn't say it's for guardians at all.
                      Are you in the HMO or the flats? Is the HMO licensed?

                      Originally posted by Carly View Post
                      Before he bought the estate, when it was up for sale, it was managed by a genuine PG company. He copied the idea from this. I was here under the first company as a bona fide Property Guardian and allowed to stay on after the current LL bought the place. He produced his own licence agreement but I didn't sign it. He lives on the estate, the lets are long term (some been here for yrs) and his ltd co is not a property management co. He uses a tenancy deposit scheme and Sec 21s to cover his arse yet insists people have no tenant rights. As there's no specific legislation for P. Guardian schemes, he thinks he's beaten the system.
                      Property guardians are generally treated as licensees. https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2021/12/th...nd-possession/ (but this was an actual property guardian firm with a commercial building being inhabited...)

                      But as it sounds like you have not signed the property guardian (license to occupy) contract with him, he will likely struggle to claim that is the basis for your occupation. You will need to demonstrate usual hallmarks if trying to establish tenancy:
                      • the grant of exclusive possession of premises
                      • for a period of time
                      • at a rent

                      Regarding the arrears - assuming you continued to pay the prior rate of rent (pre-unagreed hike) - include centrally in your case that you never agreed to the rent increase as shown by your continuing to pay the previous rate. Your bank statements covering the entire period (before and after) should be useful to show your regular rent rate and that you merely persisted the status quo...

                      Consider (potentially with legal advice) also whether his treatment of you (you mentioned attempted retalitory rent hikes, intimidation and threat of financial ruin) might amount to harassment which would be grounds for you bringing a 'Rent Repayment Order' against him.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You may also want to use land registry (£3) to show owner of the buidlings and tie that with (presumably the same) the owner/controller of the limited company (via companies house website).
                        This would reduce the ability of the LL(person) to shift too much blame onto the LL limited company - strengthening the position that they are one and the same and the company may just be a agent of the person/sham in this arrangement versus that the limited company is an independant actor.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Carly View Post
                          1. If the possession claim fails as it should, what happens to the money claim?
                          They don't sound related from the sounds of it. Certainly if you get a result in one you might use it as extra evidence in the other but they don't sound related (from what you've described and I've understood).

                          Possession is: he wants you out of the building.

                          Money claim is (presumably): you have not paid full rent for x period.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by pgten View Post
                            Are you in the HMO or the flats? Is the HMO licensed?
                            I'm in the HMO which has a licence.

                            Originally posted by pgten View Post
                            Property guardians are generally treated as licensees.

                            I'm not really a property guardian in reality. I emailed him once to ask and he refused to answer! No one here considers themselves a PG. Can you be one without realising?
                            • the grant of exclusive possession of premises
                            • for a period of time
                            • at a rent

                            I have these. No 1 is denied in the agreement but in reality, I do.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Does the agreement contain a statement to the effect that it does not create a tenancy? If so, please quote the provision in full.

                              Comment

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