Section 21 superseded new Section 21 - Landlord Vs Tenant 1 Vs Tenant 2

[jpkeates]

That’s possible, but it’s only really useful if the tenant doesn’t want to leave and is trying to overturn a s21 notice.

Its also legally dubious, because the “old” tenancy hasn’t really ended - although in this case tenant 1 could argue that they weren’t on the “new” tenancy.

If you’re worried, get tenant 1 to give notice.

[propster717]

Thanks jpkeates

Going back to section 21 , I've read on here that there may be some risk if landlord agrees that the tenant can stay beyond the expiry of a section 21 (as opposed to simply letting it happen) then landlord may be deemed to have agreed a new tenancy after the expiry of the section 21.
Written here in 2011:
https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...558#post486558

I just wandered what your thoughts were on this. I'm wandering if that may apply to me after expiry of the first section 21 (11/02/2022).

[jpkeates]

They might be, I've never heard of anyone who's managed to win on one in court - but that might be a self fulfilling thing, people rarely post positive outcomes online.

They can be useful for students and parents - they're both a threat and a lever, but if the tenant doesn't care that that guarantor knows they're In debt and the guarantor doesn't feel any obligation, they're likely to be tricky to enforce.

You might find that the guarantor feels an obligation and you might find that the threat of court action is effective even if they don't.

[propster717]

Thanks,
I guess the guarantor agreement conversation is a whole new topic but from the sound of things I guess you're saying they are not worth the paper they're written on!

[jpkeates]

So if Tenant 2 gave notice to end tenancy for the 11/03/2022, and assuming vacant possession is provided on this date, do you think Tenant 1 and Tenant 2 remain joint and severally up to this end date? (And do guarantor liabilities remain up to this date as well?).

Yes to the first part and I don't know about the guarantor element.
Many guarantor agreements are, essentially, worthless unless the guarantor feels they should honour them.

[DPT57]

Yes, that is correct.

[propster717]

Thanks jpkeates

So if Tenant 2 gave notice to end tenancy for the 11/03/2022, and assuming vacant possession is provided on this date, do you think Tenant 1 and Tenant 2 remain joint and severally up to this end date? (And do guarantor liabilities remain up to this date as well?).

[jpkeates]

Your section 21 notices don't end the tenancy and, at this point, have no effect.
In order for the notice to have any effect beyond conveying your wishes to the tenant, you have to take them to court.

You can't withdraw a section 21 notice, but you can decide not to progress them to court.

You can issue as many section 21 notices as you like (up to the point that one of the tenants feels harassed) and, the only one that matters is the one you go to court with to seek possession.

Either of the tenants can serve notice to end the tenancy giving a minimum of a month's notice ending on the 11th of the month (assuming that's the day of the month the fixed term ends).

Notice from one of them ends the tenancy for both of them.

I'd suggest that tenant 2 gives you notice to end the tenancy on 11th March, which is the earliest that they can now end the tenancy.

[propster717]

Hi all,

I would be grateful for any advice:

I'm a landlord as follows:

AST - commenced 12/04/2021
6 month fixed term, now contractual periodic (has not been renewed).
Tenant 1
Tenant 2
(No children)
Guarantor (relation of Tenant 1)
Deposit protected
Country: England

Around the end of last year (Oct 21 - Nov 21) Tenant 1 was ordered to leave the property by public authorities due to unfortunately inflicting domestic abuse on Tenant 2. Apparently there has been a Court order to prevent Tenant 1 coming in proximity of Tenant 2 or even contacting them.

Tenant 2 resides in the property and intended to move on to a new property in Feb 2022.
Just to note, Tenant 2 has been paying the rent consistently for the last few months. (Although I guess irrelevant due to joint and severally liable with Tenant 1).

Therefore, I served notice on 27/11/2021 to bring the tenancy to an end on 11/02/2022 for all parties (T1, T2. G).

So far, so good, however;

Last week, Tenant 2 requested if they could have an extra month in the property as there was a slight delay with their new property. Therefore, on the 18/01/2022 I sent a notice to withdraw the current section 21 to all parties and I followed up with a new section 21 notice on the same day to end the tenancy on 21/03/2022.

While Tenant 2 is agreeable to the withdrawal of the old section 21 and service of the new section 21, it appears that Tenant 1 is not. Tenant 1 wishes the tenancy to end as soon as possible and will likely favour the old section 21.

Now, so far, Tenant 1 has not provided any nuance to their argument, however, my main concern is, does Tenant 1 have a point? Have I created doubt? Even though tenants are joint and severally liable, have I unwittingly allowed escape for Tenant 1 and Guarantor on the 11/02/2022 (as per the original notice) while unintentionally granting a new tenancy to Tenant 2 ? (The need then to re-protect deposit and serve documents.) AND worse, am I now open from some kind of attack from Tenant 1 ? (Promissory Estoppel?)

Or is it that the tenancy won't end on 11/02/2022 because Tenant 2 will still clearly reside beyond this date and all parties remain liable until vacant possession is given.

My hope, whatever the case, with only an additional month, and full co operation and support from Tenant 2, with whom I have a good relationship with and have no doubt will pay the last month's rent, I'm hoping it may end OK.

Thank you for your thoughts on this one.