Alternative ways to enforce a Peaceable Eviction

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    Alternative ways to enforce a Peaceable Eviction

    Hi,

    A Lodger (Excluded Occupier) needs to be excluded as his Notice Period has expired (one calendar month), and he refuses to leave

    I understand Police will not get involved to remove him, even though he is tresspassing, understand they view this as Civil not criminal.

    Landlord can perform a Peaceable eviction, changing the locks is often suggested.

    Presume it is the lock to the flat, not his room lock that must be changed. The flat has a common Lobby to another flat, if that lock is not changed - does he any any rights over the Lobby.

    Are there other methods apart from changing the locks ?

    Before locks are changed, could you lock him out from the inside, whilst he briefly stepped outside (say to pay a fast food delivery driver).

    Presume as soon as he takes one step outside you could exclude him in this manner.

    I am right to think that what you could not do is push him out, if he is 'in'.

    But what if he crosses the threshold, has just moved out the door, but as the door closes behind him he then pushes it to try come back in, but I am behind it and push harder and manage to latch and lock the door from the inside. He's then out, and excluded.

    Guess Bailiffs have to deal with this sort of whos in and whos out sort of tug of war..

    If he locked himself in his room, could you isolate the power to the house, so no light, heating or power ?

    Presume a court order is required to remove the 'tresspasser' as last resort, I understand this is quicker process than where it would be for a tenant.

    Surprised Police will not get involved. Would a previous discovery of a crack pipe and cannabis smoking paraphanalia, along with CCTV footage of dfrink driving, some antisocial behaviour and harrassment of a fellow housemade entice the Police to be a little more proactive ? I wouldn't want a situation where he was simply cautioned inside my property, but the Officers not eject him.

    Any thoughts appreciated.

    #2
    [QUOTE=bob369;n1177944]I understand Police will not get involved to remove him, even though he is tresspassing, understand they view this as Civil not criminal./QUOTE]That's because this kind of trespass isn't a crime.

    Landlord can perform a Peaceable eviction, changing the locks is often suggested.
    Presume it is the lock to the flat, not his room lock that must be changed. The flat has a common Lobby to another flat, if that lock is not changed - does he any any rights over the Lobby.
    If you change the lock on his room he's still got access to the rest of the property, so you want to exclude them completely.

    Are there other methods apart from changing the locks ?
    Not that have the same effect if they are unco-operative.

    Before locks are changed, could you lock him out from the inside, whilst he briefly stepped outside (say to pay a fast food delivery driver).
    Yes, once the notice has expired, if he's present, he's trespassing.

    I am right to think that what you could not do is push him out, if he is 'in'.
    It's your home, so you can use reasonable force.

    But what if he crosses the threshold, has just moved out the door, but as the door closes behind him he then pushes it to try come back in, but I am behind it and push harder and manage to latch and lock the door from the inside. He's then out, and excluded.
    Yes.

    If he locked himself in his room, could you isolate the power to the house, so no light, heating or power ?
    Yes, it's your home and he has not right to be there.

    Presume a court order is required to remove the 'tresspasser' as last resort, I understand this is quicker process than where it would be for a tenant.
    Yes, because the process to remove a trespasser is faster, but it isn't instant.

    Surprised Police will not get involved. Would a previous discovery of a crack pipe and cannabis smoking paraphanalia, along with CCTV footage of dfrink driving, some antisocial behaviour and harrassment of a fellow housemade entice the Police to be a little more proactive ? I wouldn't want a situation where he was simply cautioned inside my property, but the Officers not eject him.
    None of that is likely to make any difference.

    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

    Comment


      #3
      Appreciate the disappointment, I had a similar reaction then the Police refused to remove a squatter from my house because they forged a tenancy agreement... I had to reconcile the fact that the Police deal with crime, black and white. This issue, as mine was, is a civil matter (or, at least, one debatably).

      Your best option is to exclude them when you get a chance, by changing locks. You should not forcibly remove them, as tempting as that may be - it will almost guarantee a fight and potential worse, damage to property etc.

      Court is an option, but to say it's "quicker" is to say a turtle on roller-skates is quicker than a turtle...It's not "quick", and it's expensive.

      Wait till they go out, change the locks, and ring 111 to inform the police that you have legally excluded an occupier - that way, should they be called out they'll be more inclined to be "on your side".

      If they do come out, and try to force you to allow the guy entry, remind them it's a civil matter - and none of their business. If the ex-occupant has an issue with it, he has a legal remedy he can pursue, the police have no authority to tell you to allow him entry.

      Comment


        #4
        You could get friends around and between you all, start to move his belongings outside the flat. Its risky because of the potential for violent confrontation. You would need to make sure that his stuff was still safe there and probably remove the lock to his room first.

        Comment


          #5
          Just to check:

          You talk about a lodger, but then talk about a flat and also about a common lobby to another flat, and about locks on individual room/flat doors.
          The flat has a common Lobby to another flat,
          Is this actually a lodger or is it a tenant?

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks for the replies.

            It's your home, so you can use reasonable force.
            If he still has one foot inside the property and the door ajar, could you use reasonable force to push the door shut and force an exclusion. I assume if he pushes against the door to come back in or barges it with his shoulder - does he then become an intruder ?

            I had a similar reaction then the Police refused to remove a squatter from my house because they forged a tenancy agreement..
            Sounds awful, sounds like you were put through the mill with that ... how do you disprove that on the spot. Did they have a set of Keys, did the Police not ask to see the keys work in the doors and further prove the validity of what he was saying, such as asking to see inside the room and quiz him on a few things ... they could have opened a few drawers and asked him to descibe a few of the items in them ??

            You should not forcibly remove them, as tempting as that may be - it will almost guarantee a fight and potential worse, damage to property etc.
            Umm agree you need to be careful, only though to avoid stepping into unlawful eviction territory, but as stated above you could reasonable force ... 3 big blokes could eaily barge the lodger down the stairs and out the door without too much fuss.

            What is the difference between an Intruder and a tresspasser, and the spectre of unlawful eviction with one and not the other.
            https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

            Is this actually a lodger or is it a tenant?
            My Tenant occupying one of the flats is the head landlord with 2 lodgers, sharing kitchen/diner, and hallway, it is the Tenats main address and has been throughout their lodgers occupation. Whether a landlord occupies a flat or house, a person renting a room with them is still a lodger ? Yes two flats open onto a small common lobby.
            A lodger can still have a lock on their room, but the common law contract states no exclusive occupation, and landlord is allowed access at anytime to make inspections, and landlord has a key. I also enter room every 3 months to do a check up as well as quarterly fire door checks..

            Comment


              #7
              There are cases reported here where police have said 'let them back in or we will arrest you'. They may have been bluffing, but they could possibly arrest to 'prevent a breach of the peace'.
              If someone has literally just stepped outside, and has the door slammed shut behind them, possibly with no phone, money, winter clothes, keys, etc. then I would actually expect the police to do something about it.

              From previous threads, bob369 has some sort of contrived lodger thing going on where it is actually a HMO, but they claim that one of the tenants is letting out the other rooms to lodgers.
              I wouldn't want that arrangement to come under too much scrutiny...

              Comment


                #8
                If someone has literally just stepped outside, and has the door slammed shut behind them, possibly with no phone, money, winter clothes, keys, etc. then I would actually expect the police to do something about it.
                Thank you for the differing angle, I've never had to consider or deal with the sort of behaviour going on here. I simply want the course of action taken to be supported by the Police.
                There is CCTV evidence of all sorts of shennigans going on, and a Police CAD report for it, I think patience has been shown on this side by not asking the Police to come at the time.

                I don't beleive you can contrive an AST and its rights, it either is or it isnt ? yes it is a compliant HMO.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ted.E.Bear View Post
                  From previous threads, bob369 has some sort of contrived lodger thing going on where it is actually a HMO, but they claim that one of the tenants is letting out the other rooms to lodgers.
                  I wouldn't want that arrangement to come under too much scrutiny...
                  That was very much my thinking after reading the reply given here, it could be above board but sounds contrived.

                  But either way, whether they are your tenants, or lodgers of your tenant, it's almost certainly a HMO:
                  http://www.lodgerlandlord.co.uk/2010...y-into-an-hmo/
                  If you are yourself a tenant, if taking in a (non-family member) lodger will bring the number of people in the property to over 2 – this could create an HMO.
                  If it is as stated then they are the tenants lodgers and it's up to that tenant to evict them, not bob369.

                  If it is as stated then the lodgers have nothing to do with bob369, but the fact that he is trying to evict them also points up that he sees them as his tenants/lodgers.

                  You can't have it both ways; either they are your tenants in your HMO so you can evict them, or they are your tenants lodgers (still in a HMO) and nothing to do with you.


                  Comment


                    #10
                    It's definitely an HMO, but that doesn't affect the "lead" tenant's right to exclude the lodger when their notice has expired.

                    A side issue is that the OP has no right the do anything to exclude the lodger, other than act in support of the "lead" tenant.
                    The OP isn't involved in the arrangement with the lodger and can't use reasonable force to remove them (or push them out the door or change the locks etc - unless they're doing so to help the actual landlord).

                    If the arrangement is a sham and they're really a tenant, all bets are off and the content of this thread is all wrong.
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      If it is as stated then they are the tenants lodgers and it's up to that tenant to evict them, not bob369.

                      I agree, and that is what is happening.

                      With most of my tenants I have always had a good relationship,. many of them stay for years, some of them have worked for me in my business.
                      I will always bend over backwards to help them - and around to help them when needed, from immigration claims to hanging a mirrior.

                      In this particular circumstance a tenant needs help dealing with some very unpleasant characters (the lodger and his 'visitor') and the antisocial and Criminal behaviour they have brought to one of my properties. (after discussion with a PC, it is also beleived either the lodger or 'Visitor' may have a Criminal record for burglary).

                      I cannot see why I would not be permitted to 'act in support of the "lead" tenant',

                      Why should supporting a lead tenant in this manner bring into question the Landlord to Tenant (AST)) and Tenant to Lodger (Excluded Occupier) - contracts and agreements in place.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by bob369 View Post
                        I cannot see why I would not be permitted to 'act in support of the "lead" tenant',
                        You can act "in support" of the "lead" tenant, but it would have to be pretty direct.
                        You couldn't really, for example, do anything without the lead tenant doing pretty much the same thing at the same time.

                        The "lead" tenant can use reasonable force to evict someone who is a trespasser in their home, it's not your home, so, unless you were there with the "lead" tenant who was using reasonable force, you'd have no right to do anything - and you'd need to be careful that the force used by both of you cumulatively, remained "reasonable".

                        It would be much more sensible to let the "lead" tenant to sort out his own mess, as it was his judgement to allow the problem lodger into the property.

                        You probably need to be more concerned what might happen if the problem lodger grasses you up for operating an HMO.
                        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I have to agree that this all sounds a borderline arrangement, to say the very least.

                          And one that is always going to lead to problems.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            If the tenant has a self contained flat in the building, then I believe the "lodgers" will not be licensees, but will be tenants with basic protection. My understanding is that they will have a few more rights than licensees and the tenant may have to get a court order to remove them.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                              If the tenant has a self contained flat in the building, then I believe the "lodgers" will not be licensees, but will be tenants with basic protection. My understanding is that they will have a few more rights than licensees and the tenant may have to get a court order to remove them.
                              Spot on. Landlord needs to serve NTQ then proceed through court.

                              Landlords who don't can and have gone to jail, plus fines, for illegal eviction and/or harassment.
                              I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                              Comment

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