Signing a Guarantors form (as deed) : Problem Witnessing

[Mike777]

Hi all

Would appreciate some advice on this please....
New tenant is moving in (Property in Oxfordshire). Guarantor is his father who lives in Scotland.
The guarantor form I use is signed as a deed and needs to be witnessed.
Is there any way this can be done without one of us having to travel to meet the other and would I need to take a person to witness it.
With appreciate any view or advice on this please.
Thank you for your time
Regards
Mike

[Hooper]

I send Deed to them by email (with contract and scary covering letter pressing home what a huge commitment it is), they print sign in front of a witness (who includes name address email and mobile - no one related or in business with them), scan and email back to me and lastly mail original to me. I don't sign it. I don't treat is as executed until I receive the original. My ASTs are digital online so I also get them to initial and sign the AST (before T) to confirm they agree it is the same agreement which they agreed to guarantee.

[jpkeates]

The signature and the witness attesting to it can be done remotely and without the other party present.
Same with your signature and witness.

The guarantor would need to be advised to take English legal advice, as the Scottish legal system is different.

You'd have to enforce the guarantor agreement in an English court and transfer any debt into the Scottish system to enforce it (assuming the guarantor decided to be difficult).

[Mike777]

The signature and the witness attesting to it can be done remotely and without the other party present.
Same with your signature and witness.

The guarantor would need to be advised to take English legal advice, as the Scottish legal system is different.

You'd have to enforce the guarantor agreement in an English court and transfer any debt into the Scottish system to enforce it (assuming the guarantor decided to be difficult).

He told me Scotland but just checked to confirm and it's actually Carlisle so just south of the boarder. I should have checked first. Apologises

[jpkeates]

He told me Scotland but just checked to confirm and it's actually Carlisle so just south of the boarder. I should have checked first. Apologises

No need to apologise - Carlisle is much more useful for you!

I'd sign and get witnessed your copy and send it to Carlise for signing and witnessing there.
Advise the guarantor to read the tenancy agreement and to get legal advice if they have any concerns or are not sure what they're agreeing to do before signing it.

[Mike777]

No need to apologise - Carlisle is much more useful for you!

I'd sign and get witnessed your copy and send it to Carlise for signing and witnessing there.
Advise the guarantor to read the tenancy agreement and to get legal advice if they have any concerns or are not sure what they're agreeing to do before signing it.

Many thanks... Excuse myself seeking the calification......so I don't need to be there when they sign or vice versa. Thank you again.

[jpkeates]

That's spot on.

[Hooper]

I'd sign and get witnessed your copy and send it to Carlise for signing and witnessing there.

There is obviously no harm in L signing it but I feel pretty certain that the landlord does not need to sign it themselves, unless the deed includes an obligation for the landlord.

[Mike777]

Thanks for all the advice and comments very helpful.

There has been another twist over night !!!!

The guarantor is due down a week after the son (renter) moves in. He has offered to sign it then and I have no doubt he will.

Can I simply start and date the guarantor agreement for the day he comes down and is able the sign it. It would tie into the start date of the AST agreement and hope that's not a problem ?

Many thanks for the continued help.

[Hooper]

Adds risk and uncertainty and no advantage to you, that I can see. I'd avoid it.

Useful thread touching on some of the points you've raised which you may already have seen here:
https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...to-a-guarantor

[jpkeates]

There is obviously no harm in L signing it but I feel pretty certain that the landlord does not need to sign it themselves, unless the deed includes an obligation for the landlord.

The deed needs to be signed (with witnesses) by both parties to the agreement.

And, I agree that signing the deed after the start of the tenancy isn't the safest idea.

[Hooper]

The deed needs to be signed (with witnesses) by both parties to the agreement.

You and Lawcruncher seem to differ on the need for both parties to sign. I was under the distinct impression that you conceded to his position in the thread linked to above.

Nevertheless, where timing is of an issue L can sign upon receipt of the original document from G - rather than to have to post the original in both directions.

[jpkeates]

You and Lawcruncher seem to differ on the need for both parties to sign. I was under the distinct impression that you conceded to his position in the thread linked to above.

I am always happy to be corrected by Lawcruncher, who is undoubtedly correct.

But common sense says that you don't want any obstacles to enforcement of an agreement, and you don't want to be explaining legal conventions to a reluctant guarantor.

Usually I'm reluctant to suggest signing anything before sending it to the other party, because there's a risk that they'll simply keep it and only countersign it when they think it suits them, but in this case, the onus is on the guarantor to sign, and I think that having a signed document might encourage them to sign.

However, as the OP seems happy to commence the tenancy without the guarantee in place, I'd question its neccessity.

[Hooper]

I am always happy to be corrected by [USER="14645"]

Usually I'm reluctant to suggest signing anything before sending it to the other party, because there's a risk that they'll simply keep it and only countersign it when they think it suits them, but in this case, the onus is on the guarantor to sign, and I think that having a signed document might encourage them to sign.

We seem to agree that L's signature is not necessary for the deed to be enforceable. I take your point that should L later need to rely on the deed G might argue - incorrectly - that the lack of L's signature makes it invalid and that this misapprehension by G could be avoided by including L's signature.

I have no objection to adding L's signature as "belt and braces" but the important point is how to execute the deed both efficiently and effectively at a distance. Posting it in two directions increases L's workload, slows things down and increases the chance of paperwork going missing, causing delay. The other advantage of emailing it to G is that you can include the AST and a covering letter in the same email and have a definitive record of having done so.

If one prefers to add L's signature then it makes sense to add it after L receives the original copy printed and signed by G. The motivation argument does not make sense to me. G's leading motivation to sign the deed is that if he does not the T does not get a tenancy. If that's not enough then G is probably not going to make a great guarantor! It seems highly speculative to argue that having L's (arguably unnecessary) signature already on it is at all likely to motivate G further.

The only issue which come to mind doing things this way is that you may wish to check that the deed has not been doctored before being returned and that the witness is genuine. You could always request that it be signed in front of a JP, notary or the like - although I have never done this.

[DPT57]

On the basis that both parties sign and their signatures are witnessed, I assume that the dates should be added later though? Wouldn't it be difficult to claim the document was executed as a deed if the dates of signatures are different?