Signing a Guarantors form (as deed) : Problem Witnessing

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Signing a Guarantors form (as deed) : Problem Witnessing

    Hi all

    Would appreciate some advice on this please....
    New tenant is moving in (Property in Oxfordshire). Guarantor is his father who lives in Scotland.
    The guarantor form I use is signed as a deed and needs to be witnessed.
    Is there any way this can be done without one of us having to travel to meet the other and would I need to take a person to witness it.
    With appreciate any view or advice on this please.
    Thank you for your time
    Regards
    Mike

    #2
    I send Deed to them by email (with contract and scary covering letter pressing home what a huge commitment it is), they print sign in front of a witness (who includes name address email and mobile - no one related or in business with them), scan and email back to me and lastly mail original to me. I don't sign it. I don't treat is as executed until I receive the original. My ASTs are digital online so I also get them to initial and sign the AST (before T) to confirm they agree it is the same agreement which they agreed to guarantee.
    Assume I know nothing.

    Comment


      #3
      The signature and the witness attesting to it can be done remotely and without the other party present.
      Same with your signature and witness.

      The guarantor would need to be advised to take English legal advice, as the Scottish legal system is different.

      You'd have to enforce the guarantor agreement in an English court and transfer any debt into the Scottish system to enforce it (assuming the guarantor decided to be difficult).
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
        The signature and the witness attesting to it can be done remotely and without the other party present.
        Same with your signature and witness.

        The guarantor would need to be advised to take English legal advice, as the Scottish legal system is different.

        You'd have to enforce the guarantor agreement in an English court and transfer any debt into the Scottish system to enforce it (assuming the guarantor decided to be difficult).
        He told me Scotland but just checked to confirm and it's actually Carlisle so just south of the boarder. I should have checked first. Apologises

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Mike777 View Post
          He told me Scotland but just checked to confirm and it's actually Carlisle so just south of the boarder. I should have checked first. Apologises
          No need to apologise - Carlisle is much more useful for you!

          I'd sign and get witnessed your copy and send it to Carlise for signing and witnessing there.
          Advise the guarantor to read the tenancy agreement and to get legal advice if they have any concerns or are not sure what they're agreeing to do before signing it.
          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
            No need to apologise - Carlisle is much more useful for you!

            I'd sign and get witnessed your copy and send it to Carlise for signing and witnessing there.
            Advise the guarantor to read the tenancy agreement and to get legal advice if they have any concerns or are not sure what they're agreeing to do before signing it.
            Many thanks... Excuse myself seeking the calification......so I don't need to be there when they sign or vice versa. Thank you again.

            Comment


              #7
              That's spot on.
              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jpkeates View Post

                I'd sign and get witnessed your copy and send it to Carlise for signing and witnessing there.
                There is obviously no harm in L signing it but I feel pretty certain that the landlord does not need to sign it themselves, unless the deed includes an obligation for the landlord.
                Assume I know nothing.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Thanks for all the advice and comments very helpful.

                  There has been another twist over night !!!!

                  The guarantor is due down a week after the son (renter) moves in. He has offered to sign it then and I have no doubt he will.

                  Can I simply start and date the guarantor agreement for the day he comes down and is able the sign it. It would tie into the start date of the AST agreement and hope that's not a problem ?

                  Many thanks for the continued help.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Adds risk and uncertainty and no advantage to you, that I can see. I'd avoid it.

                    Useful thread touching on some of the points you've raised which you may already have seen here:
                    https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...to-a-guarantor
                    Assume I know nothing.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Hooper View Post
                      There is obviously no harm in L signing it but I feel pretty certain that the landlord does not need to sign it themselves, unless the deed includes an obligation for the landlord.
                      The deed needs to be signed (with witnesses) by both parties to the agreement.

                      And, I agree that signing the deed after the start of the tenancy isn't the safest idea.

                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                        The deed needs to be signed (with witnesses) by both parties to the agreement.
                        You and Lawcruncher seem to differ on the need for both parties to sign. I was under the distinct impression that you conceded to his position in the thread linked to above.

                        Nevertheless, where timing is of an issue L can sign upon receipt of the original document from G - rather than to have to post the original in both directions.
                        Assume I know nothing.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hooper View Post
                          You and Lawcruncher seem to differ on the need for both parties to sign. I was under the distinct impression that you conceded to his position in the thread linked to above.
                          I am always happy to be corrected by Lawcruncher, who is undoubtedly correct.

                          But common sense says that you don't want any obstacles to enforcement of an agreement, and you don't want to be explaining legal conventions to a reluctant guarantor.

                          Usually I'm reluctant to suggest signing anything before sending it to the other party, because there's a risk that they'll simply keep it and only countersign it when they think it suits them, but in this case, the onus is on the guarantor to sign, and I think that having a signed document might encourage them to sign.

                          However, as the OP seems happy to commence the tenancy without the guarantee in place, I'd question its neccessity.
                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                            I am always happy to be corrected by [USER="14645"]

                            Usually I'm reluctant to suggest signing anything before sending it to the other party, because there's a risk that they'll simply keep it and only countersign it when they think it suits them, but in this case, the onus is on the guarantor to sign, and I think that having a signed document might encourage them to sign.
                            We seem to agree that L's signature is not necessary for the deed to be enforceable. I take your point that should L later need to rely on the deed G might argue - incorrectly - that the lack of L's signature makes it invalid and that this misapprehension by G could be avoided by including L's signature.

                            I have no objection to adding L's signature as "belt and braces" but the important point is how to execute the deed both efficiently and effectively at a distance. Posting it in two directions increases L's workload, slows things down and increases the chance of paperwork going missing, causing delay. The other advantage of emailing it to G is that you can include the AST and a covering letter in the same email and have a definitive record of having done so.

                            If one prefers to add L's signature then it makes sense to add it after L receives the original copy printed and signed by G. The motivation argument does not make sense to me. G's leading motivation to sign the deed is that if he does not the T does not get a tenancy. If that's not enough then G is probably not going to make a great guarantor! It seems highly speculative to argue that having L's (arguably unnecessary) signature already on it is at all likely to motivate G further.

                            The only issue which come to mind doing things this way is that you may wish to check that the deed has not been doctored before being returned and that the witness is genuine. You could always request that it be signed in front of a JP, notary or the like - although I have never done this.
                            Assume I know nothing.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              On the basis that both parties sign and their signatures are witnessed, I assume that the dates should be added later though? Wouldn't it be difficult to claim the document was executed as a deed if the dates of signatures are different?

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              • Reply to Winter of Unpaid Bills
                                by SouthernDave
                                Good point...
                                10-08-2022, 19:09 PM
                              • Winter of Unpaid Bills
                                by jpucng62
                                Does anyone think their tenants are ready for the huge rises in energy bills this winter? Given that unit prices are expected to more than double from where we are now (and that is a big rise already) does anyone think tenants really have a grasp on this?

                                With mortgage rates going up fast...
                                10-08-2022, 10:50 AM
                              • Reply to Winter of Unpaid Bills
                                by DPT57
                                I'm more concerned at the possibility of a winter of unheated rental properties and then the tenants expecting me to deal with the resultant mold.
                                10-08-2022, 19:04 PM
                              • Reply to Dps deposit
                                by Codger
                                I think the deposit of five weeks rent is more trouble than its worth. Not taking deposits means being a bit more selective in choosing tenants.
                                Considering the value of the asset the tenants are trusted with the deposit rules are crazy. But thats only one of the red tape obstacles to being a...
                                10-08-2022, 18:22 PM
                              • Dps deposit
                                by Jm1972
                                Hi All,

                                i would be grateful if I could get some help please.

                                I got an estate agents to find me a tenant and do all the paperwork and get proof of service for everything, tenant moved in and paid deposit just over a week ago.

                                The estate agents took the deposit from...
                                08-08-2022, 22:40 PM
                              • Reply to Winter of Unpaid Bills
                                by jpkeates
                                The daft thing is that because people will owe them the money, it won't even affect the energy company profits.
                                10-08-2022, 16:52 PM
                              • Reply to Dps deposit
                                by jpkeates
                                Looking after a significant amount of someone else's money is not a trivial undertaking.

                                I spent most of my career designing and building business solutions to replace manual processes.
                                So I have a reasonable idea of what's possible.

                                There's nothing in it but downside...
                                10-08-2022, 16:50 PM
                              • Reply to Winter of Unpaid Bills
                                by Hudson01
                                As said the idea of simply not paying is in the realms of crazy. They can get a warrant and fit a pre-payment meter to the house without your consent, i understand they will not be able to do this with everyone but the message will soon go out if they target the 1st few thousand, and as said your credit...
                                10-08-2022, 16:47 PM
                              • Reply to Dps deposit
                                by gnvqsos
                                You accept and defer ,and I take the view that the DPS could set up a programme where the incoming receipt of fund(and email details) could trigger the transmission of information relating to the DPS, and its processes. It means there is one less thing to go wrong. I like an easier life and do not take...
                                10-08-2022, 16:29 PM
                              • Reply to Increase rent / give notice to tenant (4 yrs on an original fixed term contract)
                                by jpkeates
                                That's quote simple.
                                Tell the agent to stop making an annual charge for doing nothing - which they're not allowed to do.
                                If they get shirty, google and cite the Foxton's case.



                                You don't have an agent at the moment, and I don't see why you need one.
                                Online...
                                10-08-2022, 16:16 PM
                              Working...
                              X