S21 served expired EPC!

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    #31
    Jesus Christ, you don't have to agree with it, but it'd really help if you actually read and take in what posters are saying (their arguments are), rather than go straight in arguing against what you think they wrote rather than what they actually wrote.

    When it comes to law, little changes to wording can make huge differences. It appears to me your lawyer stated something to you, and then you are summarising your understanding of what the lawyer stated, in the course of which you have changed its legal meaning.

    This does NOT apply in my case as the tenant was not on a statutory periodic tenancy but on an assured shorthold tenancy year to year...
    I don't know why you are quoting a case that you then freely admit does not apply to you. If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply. It doesn't help or hurt your argument.

    In other words the tenancy didn't expire in 2020 and just roll on automatically. A new assured shorthold tenancy was signed. So the tenant wasn't shown a EPC when they signed (renewed) and they couldn't have been because it had already expired.
    Everyone argrees there was a new tenancy when it was "renewed". Everyone agrees that at the time that new tenancy was granted, you did not have a valid EPC for that property. No one is saying that EPC doesn't expire just because the person occupying the property stays the same throughout the relevant period of time.

    jpkeates' argument is that based on the wording of the requirement as prescribed under Reg. 6(5) of The Energy Performance of Buildings (England and Wales) Regulations 2012 as amended, it doesn't matter. jpkeates is arguing that it doesn't matter because at an earlier point in time the eventual tenant was given a copy of an EPC that was valid at the time it was given to them by the landlord. And that's all that the requirement under Reg. 6(5) requires, not that at the start of the tenancy a valid EPC exist, or that giving of an EPC is only valid for one particular tenancy.

    But as jpkeates said, it's all moot if you can't even remember whether you had previously given a copy of the EPC (whether valid at the time or not) to the tenant.

    * There may or may not be a requirement for a valid EPC to exist at the start of every tenancy as a result of the minimal standard required by The Energy Efficiency (Private Rented Property) (England and Wales) Regulations 2015 as amended, but non-compliance with that does not affec the validity of section 21 notice so irrevelant to the current discussion.
    I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

    I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by KTC View Post

      * There may or may not be a requirement for a valid EPC to exist at the start of every tenancy as a result of the minimal standard required by The Energy Efficiency (Private Rented Property) (England and Wales) Regulations 2015 as amended, but non-compliance with that does not affec the validity of section 21 notice so irrevelant to the current discussion.
      Good point. I was going to raise it but didn't want to muddy the waters further.

      Comment


        #33
        "Jesus Christ" indeed all I said was for a S21 notice to be valid it needs to served with a valid current EPC. If the EPC has expired throughout the course of the most recent yearly tenancy then a S21 notice issued during this tenancy is not valid as the EPC is not valid. That's it. I have just gone through 4 flow charts on legal websites and they all confirm this, as per the lawyer, the notice is invalid, because it was served incorrectly in this case purely because of the EPC.

        Got a headache going to bed....I'll argue some more tomorrow. But thanks for debate..all though neither of us are any wiser to the others point, I don't see a middle way in this. Seems clear cut. Anyway have a goodnight.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Worriednow View Post
          I have just gone through 4 flow charts on legal websites and they all confirm this, as per the lawyer, the notice is invalid, because it was served incorrectly in this case purely because of the EPC.t.
          You should do what you feel is appropriate.
          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

          Comment


            #35
            I would do another EPC and serve another S21 to put my mind at rest.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Perce View Post
              I would do another EPC and serve another S21 to put my mind at rest.
              Just as an offshoot of the new EPC of C to be coming in reasonably soon...... If it did become a requirement to issue a new EPC (if the original has expired) before any S21 could be issued and at that time it achieved a D rating, where would that leave the LL ? Could it then be an invalid EPC because it does not meet the minimum standards to let the property ? Thus the S21 would be invalid also .... Just putting it out there ....

              Comment


                #37
                That's no different to the situation now with an E rating. A property that has an EPC of E from ten years ago will almost certainly be rated lower now as the assessment standards have changed. If it expires, there isn't a requirement for a new EPC until the tenancy changes or the landlord sells. However, it is a risk for a landlord as they are not the only ones who can commission an EPC on the property!

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Hudson01 View Post
                  Could it then be an invalid EPC because it does not meet the minimum standards to let the property ? Thus the S21 would be invalid also
                  As KTC said;

                  non-compliance with that does not affect the validity of section 21 notice so irrelevant to the current discussion.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    I suspect S21 will be extinct before EPC C comes in.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Kape65 View Post
                      I suspect S21 will be extinct before EPC C comes in.
                      That is a terrifying thought i had not considered .........

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Although a new tenancy agrrement the tenant hasn't changed since the EPC was valid so tenant has always been aware of the property rating which is the purpose of an EPC.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by buffalo747 View Post
                          Although a new tenancy agrrement the tenant hasn't changed since the EPC was valid so tenant has always been aware of the property rating which is the purpose of an EPC.
                          https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/ see pdf on this site no EPC S21 not valid.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Worriednow.....That was informative, best of luck.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Worriednow View Post
                              see pdf on this site no EPC S21 not valid.
                              This is an example of where you are reading more than what's written on the page.

                              Page 9 (of the PDF version) does not say "no EPC S21 not valid". It ask whether the tenant "has received an energy peformance certificate for the flat/house" and if no then s21 invalid.

                              Whether someone has received a copy of the EPC does not address whether any s21 would be valid if there's no currently valid EPC etc.
                              I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                              I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Worriednow View Post
                                https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/ see pdf on this site no EPC S21 not valid.
                                But that’s not what you’re suggesting it says.

                                You’re saying it means, has the tenant received an EPC that was current when the notice was served? And it doesn’t say that.
                                Which is good, because the author of that web site is a solicitor and that’s not the law says.


                                The law requires that the tenant "has received an energy peformance certificate for the flat/house“ as required under Reg. 6(5) of The Energy Performance of Buildings (England and Wales) Regulations 2012.
                                And, in that regulation, the giving of an EPC is something that happens once per tenancy.

                                However, we’re really just reciting the same points to each other now.
                                This is your notice and if you don’t think it’s valid, you need to sort your issue(s) with it out and serve a notice you’re happy with.
                                Which one of us is right isn’t as important as you retaking possession of your property.

                                And, as you can’t honestly complete the court forms requesting a hearing, because you don’t know when (or iif) an original EPC was served, you’re going to have to get a new one issued and re-serve a s21 notice anyway.
                                For your particular situation, this discussion is academic.
                                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                                Comment

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