Help Please - Section 21 Date Clarification

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • KTC
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
    A good example is using form 6a, you can just send a letter or an email, but the chances are it will not be sufficient to satisfy the law in legal proceedings, but the tenant may move out anyway.
    That's..... not a good example. Form 6A is required in England because primary and secondary legislations explicitly requires it.

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by Ted.E.Bear View Post
    Not that it's particularly relevant here, it doesn't really matter when an invalid notice is served.
    Excellent point!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ted.E.Bear
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
    You have missed the point. Deemed service is what is relevant when posting notice not actual service.
    "unless the contrary is proved"
    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    Evidence of that reality might be tricky in practice.
    It can be tricky, but good evidence might be a Royal Mail service update announcing that there are limited deliveries taking place in that area...

    Not that it's particularly relevant here, it doesn't really matter when an invalid notice is served.

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    Deemed service is only relevant if there's no evidence of service or some dispute about service.
    If the reality is that service was on day x, that would take precedence over the deemed date of y.

    Evidence of that reality might be tricky in practice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon66
    replied
    Originally posted by Ted.E.Bear View Post
    Bearing in mind the current situation, I would definitely add a few extra days.
    If the tenant claims it was delivered late because their postman was pinged then I think they would be believed.

    But I think that I would look for a different solicitor...
    You have missed the point. Deemed service is what is relevant when posting notice not actual service.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ted.E.Bear
    replied
    Bearing in mind the current situation, I would definitely add a few extra days.
    If the tenant claims it was delivered late because their postman was pinged then I think they would be believed.

    But I think that I would look for a different solicitor...

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon66
    replied
    In answer to when do the CPR apply - if you are contemplating a legal remedy, which you are as soon as you consider and consequently serve a s21, the CPR will apply. It naturally follows that 'legal rules' form the bedrock of our legal system and in order to achieve the desired outcome you follow them. If you don't there is a high probability that when you commence proceedings they will in all likelihood fail or at the very least have negative consequences. A good example is using form 6a, you can just send a letter or an email, but the chances are it will not be sufficient to satisfy the law in legal proceedings, but the tenant may move out anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by KTC View Post
    As ever, whenever this topic comes up and CPR service rules are cited, no one ever explain why they think the CPR rules applies yet. You haven't got a court claim yet. Unless and until a claim is being issued, the CPR doesn't kick in yet.
    The CPR rules don't apply, but the principle of deemed service seems to apply generally throughout the legal system.

    It's one of those things that's generally proven by a reverse decision.
    I've heard of notices being thrown out when a day's been allowed for postage (when there's every chance that it was delivered the morning following posting (usually more than 90% of first class mail achieves a next day delivery).
    I've not heard of 2 work days being an issue.
    Obviously my limited experience isn't a rule!

    I would suggest a contractual term solely about how service of documents related to the tenancy are effected / deemed service etc. are not "void" under s5.
    I agree, thanks for the correction/clarification!

    Leave a comment:


  • KTC
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
    The PD point 10.1 of Part 6 is very clear.
    "A document, other than a claim form, served within the United Kingdom in accordance with these Rules ..."

    As ever, whenever this topic comes up and CPR service rules are cited, no one ever explain why they think the CPR rules applies yet. You haven't got a court claim yet. Unless and until a claim is being issued, the CPR doesn't kick in yet.

    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    If the tenancy is a periodic tenancy created by the Housing Act, any contractual terms about ending it are void.
    I would suggest a contractual term solely about how service of documents related to the tenancy are effected / deemed service etc. are not "void" under s5.

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
    Unless as the above says, the solicitor is using a different method, I.e. personal service which is possible, or, the terms and method of service are laid out in the tenancy agreement, as contractual terms of service then take precedence, however the statutory law will still require the 4 months notice.
    The contractual terms don't take precedence over the law, the terms have to comply with the legislation, although they can add extra detail (such as a method or address for service).

    If the tenancy is a periodic tenancy created by the Housing Act, any contractual terms about ending it are void.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon66
    replied
    Originally posted by MdeB View Post

    Unless there is something stating this in the tenancy agreement?
    jpkeates is correct, a notice posted 1st class on the 30th July 21 is deemed served on the 3rd August 21 because 31st and 1st are not working days. The PD point 10.1 of Part 6 is very clear.

    Unless as the above says, the solicitor is using a different method, I.e. personal service which is possible, or, the terms and method of service are laid out in the tenancy agreement, as contractual terms of service then take precedence, however the statutory law will still require the 4 months notice.

    I cannot see how the solicitor has got the dates right either way unless effecting personal service or the agreement allows email service.

    Leave a comment:


  • MdeB
    replied
    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    The sentence about Mondays and rent due dates is, essentially, nonsense.
    Unless there is something stating this in the tenancy agreement?

    Leave a comment:


  • 777-300er
    replied
    Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately tenants are refusing to speak to us, but I believe they moved in around 2009.

    Leave a comment:


  • theartfullodger
    replied
    When do tenants say they 1st moved in please? Not vendor, not agent, not solicitor but tenant please

    If early enough no s21 anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • jpkeates
    replied
    If your solicitor is going to process the claim, they're going to have to explain/own any errors in what they do, so I'd either let them do their job or go with someone else.

    I am not a solicitor. But I share your concerns about the dates.
    If the letter is posted today (before 4:30PM I think), it will be deemed served on 3rd August (not the second) because 2 full working days are required.
    So I think that's less than 4 months and can't believe a solicitor would think any different.
    I'd have personally dated the notice 3rd (or maybe 4th) December.

    It may not matter that much, because the current thinking is that the four month term will drop to two months in September or October, so you'll probably serve new notice then.

    The solicitor is not correct that a letter sent with the notice with different dates would make the notice invalid.
    It might confuse the tenant, but notice is notice and a letter that accompanies it, isn't notice.

    The sentence about Mondays and rent due dates is, essentially, nonsense.
    Section 21 notices haven't had to end on rend due dates for some years now, and the idea that Monday's matter has never been a feature of a s21 notice as far as I know.

    If you have bought a property with the intention of serving notice on the tenants, presumably you know that everything that is necessary for the service of a valid notice was done and can demonstrate that - that's usually more tricky than the dates.

    Leave a comment:

Latest Activity

Collapse

  • Reply to Joint tenancy agreement, 1 tenant has already moved out
    by Yorkie2020
    Guess I've been very lucky this time. My niece has informed her partner that she is ending the tenancy and signing up for a new one in her name only and he is ok with it. She did point out that he will no longer be responsible for any more rent or bills when it's totally in her name.
    JPkeats,...
    27-10-2021, 02:02 AM
  • Joint tenancy agreement, 1 tenant has already moved out
    by Yorkie2020
    Good evening all,

    I wonder if I could get some advice on ending an AST tenancy in England.

    Originally a 6 month AST last Sept between my niece and her partner, I foolishly listed both on the AST as joint tenants and didn't list him as a permitted, there was no deposit paid....
    20-10-2021, 19:44 PM
  • Reply to Increasing rent
    by jpkeates
    There may be something on the NRLA website, but I don't know of a standard template.

    To be honest that clause doesn't seem to help you a lot, it stops you using a s13 notice (I'd wrongly assumed that because it said "may" you'd be able to) but doesn't actually help you with an...
    26-10-2021, 17:37 PM
  • Increasing rent
    by Berlingogirl
    Tenancy start date May 2020 in England. 6 month initial AST.
    My tenancy agreement says
    “The landlord may increase the rent after the first 52 weeks of the tenancy…..”
    Is there a specific form I should use?...
    26-10-2021, 13:33 PM
  • Reply to Increasing rent
    by Berlingogirl
    Thanks jpkeates, I looked at the form 13 but that’s for if you don’t have anything in your tenancy agreement with regard to a rent increase. Is there a pro forma for a rent increase if there is a condition in your TA?
    26-10-2021, 17:05 PM
  • Reply to Increasing rent
    by jpkeates
    If the tenancy is now an SPT, and you want to be ever so formal (and impose the increase without any agreement), search for form 13 (which is called something else on the government's tenancy forms page).

    Otherwise, you just need to get the tenant to agree and start paying the new rent...
    26-10-2021, 13:58 PM
  • Reply to Advanced rent and S21 Notices
    by jpkeates
    It is quite likely that the 2 additional months might be seen as a deposit, unless the tenancy agreement is very specific about the initial payment being for months 1, 5 and 6.

    If it is a deposit, you won't be able to use a s21 notice without returning it and the deposit will be unlawful...
    26-10-2021, 08:35 AM
  • Advanced rent and S21 Notices
    by Shorif908
    Hi All,

    I have recently had new tenants move in.
    the estate agent did the whole thing and put them in.

    The arrangement with rent payments was this. 6 months AST Tennants pay last 3 months rent in advance and then make 3 monthly payments in advance. Ie start of the month....
    26-10-2021, 08:06 AM
  • Reply to Advanced rent and S21 Notices
    by Lesney Park
    BUT to answer your question, yes the 3 months very much look like an unlawful deposit, being for a non-defined period (the last 3 months of a tenancy). If it is for a specific 3 months, its a bit lesss grey but then I'm wondering what you hope to achieve...
    26-10-2021, 08:35 AM
  • Reply to Advanced rent and S21 Notices
    by Lesney Park
    Never been shown previously

    Are you still using the same letting agents, did they come up with this "payment plan"?...
    26-10-2021, 08:33 AM
Working...
X