Research lodger or tenant and what's the most suitable lease agreement?

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    #16
    It seems that the landlord lives in the same building, so as you summised, you have basic protection.

    What are you trying to achieve? The landlord probably wants to think it's a lodger's agreement - you could try and force him to realise it's not, but then he may just decide you are too much trouble and evict you anyway.

    Comment


      #17
      Ted.E.Bear

      Hi,

      > It seems that the landlord lives in the same building

      No, he doesn't live in the same building (unsure why you have that impression)

      > What are you trying to achieve?

      Please read my original post:
      > How, and from who, do I get authoritative confirmation of my status (i.e. lodger or tenant) so I can use this as grounds to switch from a lodger to a AST agreement?

      I take your point and thanks for concern, but IMO if it's too much trouble for any landlord to fix an incorrect agreement then I'll simply find a new landlord

      Cheers

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by ldexterldesign View Post
        No, he doesn't live in the same building (unsure why you have that impression)
        You referred to that in your opening post.
        If the garage is attached to the house then it is likely the same building, but that information appears to have been left out.

        Originally posted by ldexterldesign View Post
        IMO if it's too much trouble for any landlord to fix an incorrect agreement then I'll simply find a new landlord
        I think that's probably for the best.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by ldexterldesign View Post
          [USER="69085"]It seems that the landlord lives in the same building

          No, he doesn't live in the same building (unsure why you have that impression)
          If your landlord doesn't live in the same building as you, it's almost impossible for you to be an occupier with basic protection.

          Could you describe your own situation, as your original post strongly implied, to me at least, that you lived with your landlord but didn't share space with them?
          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

          Comment


            #20
            Ted.E.Bear jpkeates

            I presume you're both reading from this quote in my original post as my original post contains nothing specific to my situation:
            >> However, there is also a third scenario; a half way house between Lodger and Tenant. This is sometimes known as an “Occupier with Basic Protection” or a “Tenant with Restricted Rights” which in reality is a Common Law tenancy. This situation exists where the landlord lives in the same building as the tenant (except a purpose built block of flats) but does not share facilities – the tenant has self-contained accommodation.

            Specific situation information is found in [this] post

            If you require any further into' then please let me know

            Thanks

            [this]: https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...59#post1160059

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by ldexterldesign View Post
              If you require any further into' then please let me know
              No, I think you are obviously fine on your own.

              Comment


                #22
                Ted.E.Bear

                If you're anti-social then ask yourself why you're using a help forum?? 😕

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by ldexterldesign View Post
                  Specific situation information is found in [this] post

                  If you require any further into' then please let me know
                  Granny flats and garage conversions are tricky.

                  The key determinant is whether you have exclusive possession of a property, which is a "dwelling house" and pay rent,

                  A dwelling house is, really helpfully, not defined anywhere outside court decisions, but, essentially means a space with facilities to allow you to sleep, eat, go to the toilet and wash. So assuming you have those things, what you rent is a dwelling house.

                  If it has a separate address and there is council tax paid separately, that would also be helpful to this notion.
                  A shared driveway isn't an obstacle for exclusive possession.

                  If you can exclude everyone else from it, including the landlord, and the landlord doesn't require access to perform a service you've agreed to (like cleaning or cooking or delivering meals) you probably have exclusive access. If there were no key, or an open door between the two properties for example, that might be unhelpful.

                  Presumably, you pay rent.

                  If those conditions are made out, you almost certainly have a tenancy (Street v Mountford 1985 - https://www.lawteacher.net/cases/street-v-mountford.php)
                  That would be true regardless of what documentation you have.

                  If you are a human being living there as your main home, if the lease began post 1988, it's almost impossible for the tenancy not to be an Assured Tenancy, and it will probably be an Assured Shorthold Tenancy, unless the agreement specifically says it isn't.
                  And, even then, it might be, because if the term that says it's not intended to be an AST is part of the agreement that claims it's not a tenancy at all, but a licence, it should probably be set aside if it went to court.

                  If the conditions for a dwelling house aren't met, obviously the conclusions would most likely be wrong as well.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #24
                    *Reposting because this post stays "unapproved", should be post #12"

                    Dreamingofsea

                    Interesting, yes I imagine case law on property/agreement classification is hazy

                    > Have you got a lodgers agreement because that's definitely not correct

                    Yes, an AST was switched to a lodger agreement at the last minute, if I recall for no other reason than my landlord thought it a better fit. I only accepted out of grace and because the lodger agreement seemed OK; if a little terse (too terse in retrospect because it doesn't include anything about ending the let).

                    Based on today's research I plan to request an AST from my landlord. Naturally, I want to understand my rights in advance of poking that nest.

                    FYI using [this] tool in every which way possible for my situation yields an AST result so that alone certainly justifies the landlord request I think

                    Cheers

                    [this]: https://england.shelter.org.uk/housi...rights_checker

                    Comment


                      #25
                      jpkeates

                      Thank you - great advice!

                      For completeness, to answer some of your propositions...

                      > [...] whether you have exclusive possession of a property, which is a "dwelling house" and pay rent

                      Yes, I have exclusive possession

                      > [...] facilities to allow you to sleep, eat, go to the toilet and wash. So assuming you have those things, what you rent is a dwelling house.

                      Yes, I have these things

                      > If it has a separate address and there is council tax paid separately, that would also be helpful to this notion.

                      I share the address (i.e. do not have my own address)

                      Council tax, like all bills, are included in my rent

                      > If you can exclude everyone else from it, including the landlord, and the landlord doesn't require access to perform a service you've agreed to (like cleaning or cooking or delivering meals) you probably have exclusive access. If there were no key, or an open door between the two properties for example, that might be unhelpful.

                      I can exclude everyone inc. landlord (LL) and LL doesn't need access

                      There is a key and no open door

                      > Presumably, you pay rent

                      Yes

                      > That would be true regardless of what documentation you have.

                      Ahh, interesting

                      I infer from your URL and point:
                      > And, even then, it might be, because if the term that says it's not intended to be an AST is part of the agreement that claims it's not a tenancy at all, but a licence, it should probably be set aside if it went to court.

                      .. that my lodger agreement would be null/void/incorrect in court because it doesn't accurately reflect my situation..?

                      > If you are a human being living there as your main home, if the lease began post 1988, it's almost impossible for the tenancy not to be an Assured Tenancy, and it will probably be an Assured Shorthold Tenancy, unless the agreement specifically says it isn't.

                      I am human (although I often wish I wasn't and lived in the forest), it's my main home and lease began 2020

                      Agreement doesn't say it's not an AST

                      Thanks again

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Do tenancy checker on Shelter website and/or 'phone Shelter 0808 8004444
                        I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by ldexterldesign View Post
                          [ that my lodger agreement would be null/void/incorrect in court because it doesn't accurately reflect my situation..?
                          It takes a huge amount of issues to make a whole agreement void.

                          There are parts of the agreement that would be valid regardless of the type of lease/licence.
                          The landlord's name, the rent, the property, the start dates and most of the terms and conditions etc would probably also be valid.

                          There are terms that would be invalid, because the law relating to tenancies would simply override them, and a contract can't override the law.
                          So the notice periods and terms are likely to be invalid.

                          If there's a deposit it probably needs to be protected and so on (regardless of what the tenancy agreement).

                          The basic problem is likely to be that it's likely that the landlord won't agree with my conclusion, and the issue will arise when something happens where the type of agreement is critical.
                          If the landlord gives notice for example and doesn't use the correct term or format of the notice, it wouldn't be valid, but only one of you believes that's the case.

                          If you are a lodger (ignoring the lack of definition), when the landlord's notice expires, the lodger can be locked out if they haven't moved out.
                          That's not the case for a tenant, but that doesn't help when you're outside in the rain!

                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            #28
                            theartfullodger

                            Hi,

                            Thanks for reply

                            Yes, I used Shelter tool, mentioned [here]

                            I will speak to Shelter next week

                            Cheers

                            [here]: https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...44#post1160144

                            Comment


                              #29
                              The paperwork is all very interesting but it's reality that defines the sort of agreement you have (see Street v Mountfield).
                              I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                              Comment


                                #30
                                jpkeates

                                > So the notice periods and terms are likely to be invalid

                                Actually, there is nothing relating to ending a let (inc. notice periods) in my agreement, which is another reason I want a new agreement (i.e. the correct type of agreement)

                                > If there's a deposit it probably needs to be protected and so on (regardless of what the tenancy agreement).

                                Tangentially, my deposit protection scheme (DPS) is the reason for embarking on this issue

                                Our DPS won't uphold a dispute if an AST isn't in place so in order to have my deposit protected I need an AST

                                > The basic problem is likely to be that it's likely that the landlord won't agree with my conclusion, and the issue will arise when something happens where the type of agreement is critical.

                                Yes, I need to persuade my landlord to migrate from a lodger agreement to a tenant agreement. I'm strategising how to do this but on paper it does seem an AST is the most suitable agreement. I will relay something to the effect of: not having the correct agreement in place tends to forfeit the landlord rights, not the occupier rights, if a problem arises, which I read on authority.

                                Yes, having locks changed if a problem arises, which he did threaten when I moved in if rent wasn't paid, is a fear motivation for an AST

                                [This] and [that] are useful resources for understanding lodger rights relating to notice periods and eviction

                                Cheers

                                [This]: https://www.gov.uk/rent-room-in-your...s-tenancy-type
                                [that]: https://england.shelter.org.uk/housi...sic_protection

                                Comment

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