Can I refuse payment of rent arrears and still evict tenant

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    #16
    Originally posted by dr1980 View Post
    Thanks guys. You are so spot on. I am not the landlord but actually the tenant in question.
    Originally posted by dr1980 View Post
    When I saw your replies to other queries I knew you were the guys to talk to. If I posed as a tenant then I surmised you might respond in the same way.
    Hmmmmmmmmm

    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by jpkeates View Post

      Telling someone's employer that they pay their rent doesn't sound too shaming to me.

      Letting property for money is a business.
      Breaching the tenant's right to confidentiality is against the GDPR. Not a good idea really.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Jon66 View Post

        Breaching the tenant's right to confidentiality is against the GDPR. Not a good idea really.
        There's no "right to confidentiality" between a Landlord and Tenant, and it certainly has nothing to do with GDPR as they aren't using or publishing the Tenants personal information...(whether or not they paid rent is not personal information under GDPR...)

        Breach of privacy? Maybe, it's certainly in bad taste but good luck proving it was a breach of Article 8 and associated damages...

        Also OP, "this wasn't a malicious attempt to trick you.", bloody was mate lol how else would you describe it? You wasted several forum members' time giving the same responses on something they'd already helped you with. If you want impartial advice pay a solicitor, don't create multiple accounts on this forum and try to tilt members to provide you the answer you want to hear (as presumably, you didn't hear the one you wanted the first time...)

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by dr1980 View Post
          By the way this wasn't a malicious attempt to trick you. I just wanted professional advice for what is a very unfair and extremely stressful situation. When I saw your replies to other queries I knew you were the guys to talk to. If I posed as a tenant then I surmised you might respond in the same way. Your response has been BRILLIANT. Thank you so much you've genuinely made me feel less stressed.
          No matter how you try to wrap up what you did, it's a shamefully dishonest way to deal with other forum members which typically results in a ban.
          I also post as Mars_Mug when not moderating

          Comment


            #20
            hybrice the majority of legal opinion disagrees with you . . . as does the ICO.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
              hybrice the majority of legal opinion disagrees with you . . . as does the ICO.
              You speak for the legal opinion, do you? Care to cite any of that? O’ judge of judges….

              Comment


                #22
                There's no "right to confidentiality" between a Landlord and Tenant, and it certainly has nothing to do with GDPR as they aren't using or publishing the Tenants personal information...(whether or not they paid rent is not personal information under GDPR...).

                Just look at the law. If you are processing a tenant's information, then you have to abide by the DPA2018 into which GDPR is integral. Giving information that you hold, on a tenant, to any person without that tenants express or implied permission is according to the Act and the ICO is going to be a breach. I believe the ICO may be the prosecuting body in those matters so I am inclined to go with them as a source, more so than a lot of government websites.

                You speak very authoritatively on subjects such as the above, and accuse others of failing to quote sources, but you need to look at your own posts and consider how helpful those posts are to people who do not know the law and who are seeking help, whether that is legal or practical advice or as is usually the case, a mix of both.

                Please stop being rude to and about people. It is against the spirit of the forum and very unprofessional. It is possible to have a debate or discussion about the law, which can often be grey rather than black and white, on most occasions without being rude and obnoxious, of which you are both in your above post.



                Comment


                  #23
                  This may be a terminology issue.

                  Keeping personal data secure isn't a matter of a "right to confidentiality", which probably only exists in very specific circumstances (medical and legal?) it arises as a result of legislation (and possibly as part of the European Convention on Human Rights).

                  So both arguments have merit.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    This may be a terminology issue.

                    Keeping personal data secure isn't a matter of a "right to confidentiality", which probably only exists in very specific circumstances (medical and legal?) it arises as a result of legislation (and possibly as part of the European Convention on Human Rights).

                    So both arguments have merit.
                    But being rude and obnoxious to posters does not have merit. Perhaps hybrice should read your posts which are a shining example of diplomacy in action 😃

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Jon66 View Post
                      There's no "right to confidentiality" between a Landlord and Tenant, and it certainly has nothing to do with GDPR as they aren't using or publishing the Tenants personal information...(whether or not they paid rent is not personal information under GDPR...).

                      Just look at the law. If you are processing a tenant's information, then you have to abide by the DPA2018 into which GDPR is integral. Giving information that you hold, on a tenant, to any person without that tenants express or implied permission is according to the Act and the ICO is going to be a breach. I believe the ICO may be the prosecuting body in those matters so I am inclined to go with them as a source, more so than a lot of government websites.

                      You speak very authoritatively on subjects such as the above, and accuse others of failing to quote sources, but you need to look at your own posts and consider how helpful those posts are to people who do not know the law and who are seeking help, whether that is legal or practical advice or as is usually the case, a mix of both.

                      Please stop being rude to and about people. It is against the spirit of the forum and very unprofessional. It is possible to have a debate or discussion about the law, which can often be grey rather than black and white, on most occasions without being rude and obnoxious, of which you are both in your above post.


                      I do speak with some level of authority (though to whether you entertain an argument from authority is your business) I am a compliance and GDPR officer for a £105mill PLC, whether or not someone has paid their rent is not classified as personal information. Personal information is defined under the GDPR (citation below for you, in avoidance of doubt) and whether or not he has paid his rent is not personal information, neither is his search history, what coffee he frequently buys or whether or not he likes the colour red.

                      Cite:
                      https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations...personal-data/

                      There was no breach of GDPR here because the landlord didn't release any personal information on the ex-tenant (or at least what he said was done wasn't personal information). I'm not saying what he did was right, it was wrong and in bad taste, and as I said (and Keates echoed) it may be a breach under Article 8 of the Human Rights Act, but it wasn't a breach of GDPR...

                      And your statements about rudeness are somewhat self-created, I didn't write with any malice, nor did I denigrate you in any sense, I simply stated a fact.

                      I was a little more boisterous, shall we say, with the OP, as he was clearly wasting several of our members time and lying to us, which I disapprove of.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I think the potential breach of the GDPR would depend on what the tenant was told would happen to the data that was acquired and stored by the landlord.
                        Given that roughly zero landlords have any kind of policy in place, let alone communicated to their tenants, I think the most helpful start point is that the tenant wasn't given any kind of information.

                        If the landlord were to email the tenant's employer to give them an update on the rent payment information (which seems to be that they have always paid their rent and will continue to do so, so I'm not sure harassment is likely) they'll be using information about the employer, which may or may not be personal data.
                        If the email address is John.Smith@hugecorp.com, it might be, if it's hrdepartment@ something, probably not.
                        If the email is addressed to someone at the employer by name, it's going to be personal data collected for a one purpose now being re-used for another.

                        I agree that sharing the name of the tenant to their employer is unlikely to be an issue.

                        And I think all of us can agree that it's unlikely that issue would cause any sleepless nights, crisis meetings or emergency klaxons at the ICO.

                        I would have thought that there is a reasonable expectation of privacy about whether rent is up to date or not - it would be interesting to see whether a newspaper would accept an advert that says person so and so owes me three months rent.
                        I'd guess not.

                        Honesty moment - In the first version of this post I mistyped IOC for ICO. They would have been even less interested.
                        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by hybrice View Post
                          Personal information is defined under the GDPR (citation below for you, in avoidance of doubt) and whether or not he has paid his rent is not personal information, neither is his search history, what coffee he frequently buys or whether or not he likes the colour red.
                          I am assuming that there is some misunderstanding here....

                          https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations...personal-data/

                          “‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person

                          https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

                          "Since the definition includes “any information,” one must assume that the term “personal data” should be as broadly interpreted as possible. This is also suggested in case law of the European Court of Justice, which also considers less explicit information, such as recordings of work times which include information about the time when an employee begins and ends his work day, as well as breaks or times which do not fall in work time, as personal data."

                          What definition of 'Personal information' are you using?



                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Ted.E.Bear View Post
                            I am assuming that there is some misunderstanding here....

                            https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations...personal-data/

                            “‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person

                            https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

                            "Since the definition includes “any information,” one must assume that the term “personal data” should be as broadly interpreted as possible. This is also suggested in case law of the European Court of Justice, which also considers less explicit information, such as recordings of work times which include information about the time when an employee begins and ends his work day, as well as breaks or times which do not fall in work time, as personal data."

                            What definition of 'Personal information' are you using?


                            hybrice is wrong.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              As no one knows the content of an (as far as I know) non-existent email that was never going to be written by the OP in the first place, I think making any kind of judgement on what it contains is a bit tricky.
                              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I rather think the discussion has gone beyond the original post and morphed into what constitutes 'personal data' and hybrice assertions are wrong on that matter as well as others. It is important because readers may rely on these posts (although they probably shouldn't).

                                Comment

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