Is a Lodger a Tenant, and are they Subletting.

[jpkeates]

HMO Licensing here applies at 4+ persons, 1x resident landlord + (up to) 2x lodgers would be the occupancy numbers, so 2-3 total persons.

HMO regulations (not licensing) start at three people in more than one household.
The exemption that allows two lodgers without creating an HMO doesn't apply to tenants with lodgers.

You'd need fire resistant doors, fire escape routes, hard wired and serviced alarms, for example.
You might need planning permission (depending on your local authority).

[bob369]

Thanks for your comments, food for thought.

I am aware of the Duites under The Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation legislation, being compliant should not be a problem, with guidance from a registered Fire Risk Assesor sought.

Planning Permission is required where there is more than one household in a residence, so this would apply to anyone with just one lodger, but in regard to the Regulations - Planning is as I understand a separate legal sphere..

The mortgage terms states 'I cannot convert the mortgage property into an HMO without this being a serious event'.

When a mortgage Co. refer to an HMO, do they do that under Licensing or Management Regulations, or Planning Requirements.

Could it be that 2 occupiers from 2x households 'convert the mortgage property', or is it 3 occupiers from 2 households.
Could a lot of home owners with a single lodger be falling foul of the various laws ?

[KTC]

When a mortgage Co. refer to an HMO, do they do that under Licensing or Management Regulations, or Planning Requirements.

Check the mortgage agreement itself to see how it define the term "HMO".

[jpkeates]

I am aware of the Duites under The Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation legislation, being compliant should not be a problem, with guidance from a registered Fire Risk Assesor sought.

Don't underestimate that.
Flats can be hard to set up as HMOs because of fire escape routes as well as all the usual stuff.

Planning Permission is required where there is more than one household in a residence, so this would apply to anyone with just one lodger, but in regard to the Regulations - Planning is as I understand a separate legal sphere.

I'd say that must be unusual, the government rent a room scheme is specifically designed to encourage people to have a lodger.

Could it be that 2 occupiers from 2x households 'convert the mortgage property', or is it 3 occupiers from 2 households.
Could a lot of home owners with a single lodger be falling foul of the various laws ?

It's three lodgers from more than one household.
There's a specific exemption for home owners, who are allowed two lodgers (which might be three separate households).

[bob369]

Check the mortgage agreement itself to see how it define the term "HMO"
In all the contractual papers delivered I cannot see any definition of an HMO, nor wording 'House in Multiple Occupation' - nothing, not one word, why would they omit to do so, when a condition is created by them that refers to an 'HMO'.

I note that there are two types of 'Excluded Occupier' and its contractual Agreement 1) an 'Excluded Tenancy' ie Houseshare, and 2) 'Excluded Licence', ie Lodgers.
I also note that to truly be a 'Lodger' in the eyes of the court the landlord must say - service the lodgers room - such as emptying bins etc, ie they must be given access.
If that is not happening then a Tenancy is taking place, regardless if a licence Agreement has been agreed to, and a 'lodger' - if they so wished - could claim the same rights as a Fixed Term Tenant - which requires a court order to evict.
I invite any comments if I understand this incorrectly.

Don't underestimate that.
I agree - however a registered Fire Risk Assessor has already visited the premises - and has made his recommendations.

the government rent a room scheme is specifically designed to encourage people to have a lodger.
Agree - and feel there seems to be a contradiction between the encouragement on the one hand, and the regulations and laws on the other - even if you have just one tenant or lodger, unless I am missing something.
There are then an awful lot of lodgers out there in properties without planning permission.

[jpkeates]

Check the mortgage agreement itself to see how it define the term "HMO"
In all the contractual papers delivered I cannot see any definition of an HMO, nor wording 'House in Multiple Occupation' - nothing, not one word, why would they omit to do so, when a condition is created by them that refers to an 'HMO'.

Possibly because there is a legal definition in the Housing Act 2004 and it would risk creating a conflict if there was a definition in the Ts and Cs.

[KTC]

Possibly because there is a legal definition in the Housing Act 2004 and it would risk creating a conflict if there was a definition in the Ts and Cs.

The only problem with that theory is that there are also a definition of HMO in the Council Tax (Liability for Owners) Regulations 1992 that differs. There's nothing stopping a T&C from defining a term by reference. Something along the line of "references to HMO in this document has the meaning given in Part 7 of the Housing Act 2004".

could claim the same rights as a Fixed Term Tenant - which requires a court order to evict.

A fixed term is an agreement that the agreement runs for that length of time. It has nothing to do with whether the occupation is under a tenancy or a licence.

If the occupier lived with the landlord, then they are excluded from the protection of the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 whether it's a tenancy or a licence. If it's a tenancy, it cannot be assured if there's a resident landlord throughout.

[DPT57]

....with guidance from a registered Fire Risk Assesor sought.

Not legally required for a 3 person HMO with a joint tenancy.

[bob369]

A fixed term is an agreement that the agreement runs for that length of time. It has nothing to do with whether the occupation is under a tenancy or a licence.

Thank you for picking that up, so you can still have a tenancy - even where their is a live in landlord, it just becomes an 'Excluded Tenancy'.
I'm confused about the difference between an 'excluded Tenancy' vs an 'Excluded Licence' - if they are both outside the protections odf the relevant Housing Act, where there is a Live In Landlord, with regardings to security of tenure, which does not exist in this circumstance - ie they have no right to possession.

Can you have a fixed term Tenancy where there is a live in landlord.

I would wish to avoid any forming of a tenancy - as that would change the lodger to a tenant, and it would be seen a ssubletting.