Guarantor agreements

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    Guarantor agreements

    Hi all,

    I am asking a prospective tenant to provide a guarantor and was wondering how the deed should be dated with regards to the term of the tenancy. The tenancy will be a 6 month assured shorthold agreement but I would want the guarantor to continue to act for the duration of the periodic tenancy not just the 6 month assured shorthold agreement.

    The deed requires the following information:

    Tenancy Period Starting on...... Ending on......

    What should be populated in the "Ending on" box in these circumstances?

    Best wishes

    Charlie


    #2
    I put something like " Tenancy starting on ....date.... for an initial 6 months ending on .....date.... and continuing until the tenancy ends with the property left in the same condition in which it was received (less fair wear and tear), and any outstanding rent or other money owed as per tenancy agreement ,have been cleared and any other obligations as set out in the tenancy agreement have been met"

    The guarantor then goes to a solicitor to have it signed and stamped.

    Comment


      #3
      How about https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...or-discussion=
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #4
        You CAN put that in a guarantor agreement. But the chance that it would be enforceable is remote.
        And if you increase the rent at any point, remote will become zero.

        As above if you are going to do G agreement at all - you need to get it signed in YOUR solicitors office and with guarantor armed with proof of ID. Anything else is pretty much pointless (like telling the guarantor to post back something to you signed by some random witness).

        There are very few reasons to have a tenancy agreement longer than 6 months, but having a remotely useful guarantor agreement is one of them (with a break clause).

        You need to think long and hard - if you need a guarantor is it wise to accept the tenant (special circumstances like young people excepted).

        Comment


          #5
          jpkeates

          Thanks for your reply. I did look at that thread before posting but there is no mention of a date range in that proposed agreement and so I wondered if it needed one

          Comment


            #6
            AndrewDod
            Thanks for your advice Andrew. My understanding is that the guarantors agreement needs to be signed by an independent witness. If that was done in my presence, with an independent witness, are you saying that its an unenforceable document as it wasnt signed in the solicitors office? If so would you mind expanding on why that would be the case.

            The reason for asking for a guarantor is that the tenant is young (first rental)

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by CHARLIEMAN View Post
              Thanks for your reply. I did look at that thread before posting but there is no mention of a date range in that proposed agreement and so I wondered if it needed one
              There's no date range, which is what you need if you want the guarantee to be as long as the tenancy.
              That weakens the enforceability of the document, which is probably why the one you have found has an end date.

              You should realistically consider the guarantee as moral pressure on the tenant (so you want the guarantor to be a parent) with the likelihood that it wouldn't be enforceable in the face of a determined guarantor who declined to pay.
              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

              Comment


                #8
                CHARLIEMAN,

                It has to be signed as a deed. But in practice if the tenant or guarantor assert that no such thing was signed - you are going to need to find the witness to testify in court. If the witness is their buddy never to be found with a fake name you can chuck the thing in the bin. If it's your buddy, well you may have a rough time too. If the guarantor signs with a mickey mouse signature that is nothing like their own, or their buddy does it - that's not much use either.

                Obviously the whole point is to deal with someone who may try top escape from a obligation later based on a supposed deed. So you are dealing with a particular type of person.

                Parents acting for their kids fall into a special category. You still face the problems of what happens when the fixed period ends no matter what you write into it. You could consider putting the parent on the agreement as a tenant.

                Comment


                  #9
                  jpkeates
                  "There's no date range, which is what you need if you want the guarantee to be as long as the tenancy."
                  Are you talking about the AST or the periodic one which follows? If its both how can it have a date if the periodic is ongoing?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by AndrewDod View Post
                    But in practice if the tenant or guarantor assert that no such thing was signed - you are going to need to find the witness to testify in court. If the witness is their buddy never to be found with a fake name you can chuck the thing in the bin.
                    It's not really that simple.

                    If the tenant says that they didn't sign the agreement and that their signature has been forged along with the witness, they'd have to explain away quite a lot in parallel.
                    And there's likely to be some communication indicating that a guarantor agreement would be required and that one was sent to someone contemporaneously with the start of the tenancy.

                    But fundamentally, there's not a lot of point in a landlord faking a guarantor agreement unless one doesn't exist and there's a claim to be made.
                    And it's an odd thing for the landlord to do.

                    And the balance of probabilities is the decision threshold in any claim.

                    Not that having a solicitor or notary witness the document wouldn't always be better, of course.
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by CHARLIEMAN View Post
                      jpkeates
                      "There's no date range, which is what you need if you want the guarantee to be as long as the tenancy."
                      Are you talking about the AST or the periodic one which follows? If its both how can it have a date if the periodic is ongoing?
                      The periodic tenancy is also an AST.
                      The distinction is between a fixed term and a periodic tenancy.

                      I don't use guarantor agreements, so I'm only talking about what you said you wanted.

                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        #12
                        jpkeates,

                        I think deeds are different. A lot of the stuff that might apply to contracts does not apply - and the EXACT technical aspects of the signing of the deed is critical -- and proof of intention to "deed" is not really parallel to proof of intention to contract (which carries force)

                        so for example, deeds cannot be electronically signed at all (tenancy agreements don't have to exist at all let alone on paper)

                        This recent case is interesting

                        https://www.bdbpitmans.com/blogs/rea...ssed-remotely/

                        Failure to be able to show the physical presence of the witness rendered the deed invalid (a technical failure) -- what they intended is irrelevant.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          We've both signed enough deeds to know that the person witnessing the deed would usually be entirely unknown by the other party.
                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                            We've both signed enough deeds to know that the person witnessing the deed would usually be entirely unknown by the other party.
                            I wouldn't do it if the witness was not a reliable person who could be located by me.

                            There is also the question as to whether a dog can witness a deed

                            https://www.wilberforce.co.uk/wp-con...ilberforce.pdf

                            The law does not expressly require that the witness be human -- but they should "and could later give evidence of having seen the signature by the trustee"

                            "If any person who shall attest the execution of a will shall at the time of the execution thereof or at any time afterwards be incompetent to be admitted a witness to prove the execution thereof, such will shall not on that account be invalid." (that applies to Wills)

                            A witness who cannot be located is not a witness.

                            "A failure to have a person’s signature attested properly probably means that the document cannot take effect as a deed as against that person. This may mean that the document as a whole fails to be a deed"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              AndrewDod
                              If there was any doubt as to whether to take your advice seriously, I now have the answer

                              Comment

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