Section 21 issued with new tenancy

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    #16
    You’re correct that s21 evictions should be rare, because there should be few landlords who want to evict for no reason.

    However, it seems that this no-fault repossession route has turned into the de-facto only viable option as s8 possession orders have been adjourned, pushed back, stayed and more for very insubstantial reasons. At least when I’m reading on here and on other websites (I never had to issue repossession proceedings myself luckily, quite a few money claims for rent arrears or damage but all tenants left before too long).

    If that’s the case then what actually needs revamping is the whole repossession process, rather than only s21. If s21 is only needed for no-fault evictions then I’d even say six months is reasonable because it unsettles tenants a lot. But this isn’t where we are right now, unless I’m mistaken?

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post
      You’re correct that s21 evictions should be rare, because there should be few landlords who want to evict for no reason.
      You should have a look at s21 notices.
      They're much more rare than you think, and a vast majority are issued in three London boroughs (I think I have that number right).

      Most tenancies are terminated by the tenant.
      There is a correlation between areas with the highest rent increases and the use of s21 notices.

      Lots of landlords use s21 to evict for all kinds of reasons.
      But if you use a professional service, and there's a reason (typically rent owed), they'll recommend s8, because the money judgement is worth a lot.

      Don't trust everything you read on "here".
      When a landlord is evicting someone, there's often a backstory that's really illuminating.
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post

        Because of the 10 month rule. You issue a s21 on the first day of the 5th month, this has a notice period of 6 months, hence you arrive at the end of month 10.
        The 10 month rule is nothing to do with the earliest tie after start of tenancy that a S21 notice can expire; it is the amount of time LL has (current regulations) from serving S21 notice to starting proceedings under that notice.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post
          You’re correct that s21 evictions should be rare, because there should be few landlords who want to evict for no reason.
          It is never for no reason; it is that no reason needs to be given.
          Selling the property with vacant possession is one reason to use S21 because there is no S8 ground for that.
          Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post
          However, it seems that this no-fault repossession route
          It is not and never has been a "no fault" route; that is Shelter propaganda.
          It is a "no reason required to be stated" possession route.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
            You should have a look at s21 notices.
            They're much more rare than you think,
            Could you point me at evidence that shows this, including the numbers issued but not acted upon, the numbers acted upon but found invalid, and the numbers for tenants leaving by the end of the notice period?

            Or do you mean S21 notices that are valid and result in possession being granted to the LL?

            I have also heard anecdotally that over half of successful S21 possession claims are from social housing.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by MdeB View Post

              The 10 month rule is nothing to do with the earliest tie after start of tenancy that a S21 notice can expire; it is the amount of time LL has (current regulations) from serving S21 notice to starting proceedings under that notice.
              I think what the OP meant when referring to the 10 month rule was actually the minimum period that a tenant with a new 6 month AST can stay in the property. Not the length of time after which a s21 can no longer be used as the basis of a repossession claim.

              Or I have misunderstood the OP in which case you're right, because the 10 month validity of a s21 has nothing to do with the minimum period after which the landlord could seek repossession. I guess it is confusing because both periods are 10 months though.

              Edit: actually, after re-reading the OP's post #4 I think you're in fact right and I misunderstood what the OP was referring to.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by MdeB View Post
                Could you point me at evidence that shows this, including the numbers issued but not acted upon, the numbers acted upon but found invalid, and the numbers for tenants leaving by the end of the notice period?

                Or do you mean S21 notices that are valid and result in possession being granted to the LL?

                I have also heard anecdotally that over half of successful S21 possession claims are from social housing.
                Very little social housing can use s21, because most social housing uses Assured Tenancies not ASTs.
                There are AST's in social housing, but it's unusual.
                I suspect that the underlying truth is that roughly half of possession claims relate to social housing.

                Evidence for the number issued but not acted upon isn't available (and would be unknowable).

                The numbers acted upon but found invalid can be inferred from the drop off in claims vs possession orders (and the drop off to the number of actual warrants issued and executed). All that data is here - https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...ion-statistics

                The numbers for tenants leaving by the end of the notice period would need to be extrapolated from a survey - There are estimates here:
                https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...cdp-2018-0258/
                and
                https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...ings/cbp-8658/

                There are about 20-25,000 accelerated claims in a normal year (which will pretty much all come from private landlords) and the same number of s21 and s8 claims are not social housing).
                There are about the name number of social housing claims under s8 and s21 - although, as above, almost all will be s8 in reality.

                There are about 5.5m households living in rented accommodation in the UK.

                What's most stark, though is the difference in regions - in the possession stats, there are amazing variations in regions.
                A small number of London buroughs see the majority of possession claims in the whole country.
                In some quarters, there are courts and local authorities where there are no possession claims at all.



                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                  Very little social housing can use s21, because most social housing uses Assured Tenancies not ASTs.

                  [etc]
                  Thank you.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by MdeB View Post
                    Thank you.
                    No problem - it's a bit of a wormhole when you start going through it.

                    One of the more concerning things you find is that no one has the data they need to make decisions.
                    As far as I can tell, no one knows for certain how many s21 notices are actually escalated to court - which should really end any suggestion that s21 notices should be abolished or reformed.
                    Some basic research is needed.
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                      As far as I can tell, no one knows for certain how many s21 notices are actually escalated to court -
                      Of course not because a s21 notice is a private notice so nobody will know how many are issued in the country each day, and this would only change if all s21 notices would need to be centrally lodged (I can’t see that happen and can’t see a good reason for it either).

                      which should really end any suggestion that s21 notices should be abolished or reformed.
                      Haha good luck with that.

                      Some basic research is needed.
                      Since when has basic research been a necessary precursor for the development of public opinion (and public policy which tends to chase after public opinion anyways)?

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post
                        Of course not because a s21 notice is a private notice so nobody will know how many are issued in the country each day, and this would only change if all s21 notices would need to be centrally lodged (I can’t see that happen and can’t see a good reason for it either).
                        Every notice escalated to court is recorded and the figures published quarterly, so breaking out the s21 notices from the s8 shouldn't be complicated.

                        Since when has basic research been a necessary precursor for the development of public opinion (and public policy which tends to chase after public opinion anyways)?
                        Two of the links are to House of Commons research papers, to be fair!
                        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                          Every notice escalated to court is recorded and the figures published quarterly, so breaking out the s21 notices from the s8 shouldn't be complicated.
                          You're right and this should be possible to obtain through a FOI request. But you won't know how many s21 exist in the first place so you don't know what % of s21 end up in court.

                          Two of the links are to House of Commons research papers, to be fair!
                          True, but they don't necessarily have an influence on the resulting public policies.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post
                            You're right and this should be possible to obtain through a FOI request. But you won't know how many s21 exist in the first place so you don't know what % of s21 end up in court.
                            You can have an idea.

                            One of the pieces of research said that 10% of tenants who'd moved in the last three years did so because their landlord asked them to leave.
                            Assuming that equates to some kind of notice, that's about 80-100,000 tenants per annum where a landlord gives notice - applying the percentages to the annual churn numbers.

                            Coincidentally, there are about 90-100,000 possession claims in a normal year.

                            So my feeling is "most of them".

                            They're so localised, that loads of places have no possession claims in any given quarter, and London Boroughs like Newham serve the majority of all possession claims (and, I suspect, issue the majority of s21 notices).

                            The vast majority of tenancies are ended by the tenant, so you're dealing with the minority of cases.

                            There's a quite alarming correlation between regions with high number of possession claims under s21 and regions with the highest annual increases in average rent.
                            Which kind of answers the question, why would a landlord want to evict a good rent paying tenant?
                            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                              that's about 80-100,000 tenants per annum where a landlord gives notice - applying the percentages to the annual churn numbers.

                              Coincidentally, there are about 90-100,000 possession claims in a normal year.

                              So my feeling is "most of them".
                              That sounds hard to believe to me, because for practically any dispute that occurs in large enough numbers, only a fraction typically ends up in court. So that virtually all s21 cases end up in court is unlikely.

                              Also, this would assume that all s21 notices that are given immediately go on to become a court claim. But on this forum we see large amounts of instances where s21 notices were invalid, so I would think lots of them are generally invalid, and this would often be filtered out by solicitors before claims are lodged, so this should also dramatically reduce the percentage?

                              Out of interest, do we know how many court claims are successful? I would wager a guess no more than maybe 20%?

                              There's a quite alarming correlation between regions with high number of possession claims under s21 and regions with the highest annual increases in average rent.
                              Which kind of answers the question, why would a landlord want to evict a good rent paying tenant?
                              That sounds like a very reasonable conclusion. But do you think this means most rent arrears / ASB etc. claims are then not running as s21 cases at all? Why would a landlord do this? This also makes little sense to me?

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                                One of the pieces of research said that 10% of tenants who'd moved in the last three years did so because their landlord asked them to leave.
                                Assuming that equates to some kind of notice, that's about 80-100,000 tenants per annum where a landlord gives notice - applying the percentages to the annual churn numbers.

                                Coincidentally, there are about 90-100,000 possession claims in a normal year.

                                So my feeling is "most of them".
                                My experience:
                                1. The only S21 notice I have issued, the tenants left when the notice period ended.
                                2. A friend of my wife received a S21 notice (it appeared invalid in about 8 ways when she gave me details) after sho posted on her social media page a photo and question about mould in her toddler's bedroom. She found a better landlord and property by the end of the notice.
                                3. In January I advised a tenant that I planned to sell the property in the summer and I would be issuing formal notice later in the year but I would be accommodating if they found somewhere sooner. The b'stards moved out just before Covid shutdown.
                                Maybe tenant view is "asked them to leave" means they left without court action, and court action means "landlord made them leave".

                                Comment

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