Should I be angry? Is my estate agent deliberately lying to me? (EICR & PAT test)

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    #16
    " So a fridge, freezer, washer, drier, etc. that you can unplug would be classed as a portable appliance, a wired in electric cooker or shower wouldn't be.
    "
    My electrician said these large appliances aren't portable.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Berlingogirl View Post
      [LEFT][COLOR=#111111][FONT="Open Sans"][SIZE=13px]
      My electrician said these large appliances aren't portable.
      I guess it is a perception thing..... when we moved house we removed our fridge/freezer (a large one) and the washer and dryer..... all portable given we took them with us !

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        #18
        It's like all health and safety rules, there are guidance and judgement involved.

        There are three classes of consumer electrical equipment - 1, 2, and 3 (they have different symbols on them) and then each bit of equipment has a category.

        Class 1items are more dangerous than Class 3.

        Categories are:
        Fixed (doesn't, realistically, move or is fixed)
        Stationary (can move but doesn't normally)
        IT
        Moveable
        Portable
        Cables and chargers
        Hand Held

        Whether they need a PAT test depends on the category.

        Fixed items don't need PAT testing, but movable items do.

        Washing machines and fridges are really stationary, but a lot of testers take the view that they're not really ever going to move and if they're connected to a water supply they're possibly right.
        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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          #19
          Seems a bit counter-intuitive when most domestic electrical fires seem to happen not with kettles or food mixers, but washers, dryers and fridge-freezers, (the latter quite infamously).

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            #20
            Kettles and food mixers are used for a few minutes at a time and, usually when you're in the same room.
            And when they're not in use they're switched off.

            My reading of the regulations is that fridges and other white goods meets the definition of portable for the PAT.
            But health and safety is always a nightmare, full of "reasonable" and "best practice" and "where possible"s.
            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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              #21
              I think it's more to do with if it's wired in then it's 'installed' (so should be checked under EICR).

              If it's not wired in then it's portable so PAT or an equivalent check should be used.
              Of course some things are more portable than others.

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                #22
                If someone charges you £60 for PAT testing a single appliance then I would not use them. That’s grossly too expensive (particularly if they do an EICR at the same time).

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                  #23
                  Good agents will require either that PATs are carried out on each applicable appliance, or require a written statement that the landlord instructs them not to.

                  If they do not do this, then they could have legal liability if the tenant is injured or killed by a faulty appliance.

                  The only issue here appears to be the wording of the email. But it could be that there is something in your agreement with them that makes it a requirement.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by ChrisDennison View Post
                    If someone charges you £60 for PAT testing a single appliance then I would not use them. That’s grossly too expensive (particularly if they do an EICR at the same time).
                    I think it depends on where you are in the country.

                    I've got local electricians (midlands) where that's close to the minimum call-out fee.
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by nukecad View Post
                      We have been through PAT before.

                      Portable Appliance Testing is not a legal requirement.


                      PAT is not a legal requirement, (and the agent doesn't say that it is), but it's the easiest way to comply with your requirement as a landlord to ensure that your rental property, and anything you supply in it, is safe.

                      PS. It's not just small appliances - A 'Portable Appliance' is anything that can be unplugged and moved from one location to another.
                      Basically if it has a plug then its portable, it's wired in without a plug then it is not portable.
                      So a fridge, freezer, washer, drier, etc. that you can unplug would be classed as a portable appliance, a wired in electric cooker or shower wouldn't be.
                      Totally agree - Just had our first EICR done. All our appliances were new except the fridge freezer. So the electrician did one PAT test on the fridge freezer and didn't charge.
                      We don't supply small mobile electrical items - it's not worth the trouble. During my investigations I found that it was advisable for small appliances which are used frequently such as kettles and toasters to be PAT tested annually.

                      There is a lot of wrong information about I don't think the agent was being dodgy - probably just trying to do the right thing. But I was quoted £30 for PAT testing up to 11 appliances.

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                        #26
                        BTW, no qualifications are needed to be a PAT tester.

                        The regulations only specify that the testing to be done by a 'competent person'.
                        The definition of a competent person in the regulations is - "A person possessing sufficient technical knowledge or experience to be capable of ensuring that injury is prevented".

                        So you could do it yourself, as long as you can show your tenants (and a court if someone gets a shock and sues, or worse dies) that you are 'competent' to do so.
                        A City and Guilds certificate should do.

                        A 3 day City & Guilds course will cost you around £500, a 2 day course is less if you already have some electrical training/knowledge.
                        You can get a basic testing machine for about £250 from Screwfix.

                        If you have a number of properties, it may be worth considering.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                          I dont really see any problem with the agents email. I understand that PAT testing of supplied appliances is now common practice amongst agents to cover themselves and their landlords. They've told you its not a legal requirement and offered you the opportunity to sign a disclaimer instead. I agree that the use of the word 'required' is a little ambiguous, but on the whole this seems to me like a perfectly reasonable communication from the agent.
                          I may be biased, but I completely agree.

                          Your issue appears to be that you think the agent has deliberately mislead you into doing something which will cost you very little and protects your vicarious liability as a landlord.

                          If you think it was deliberate and that that speaks to the person's (or whole agency's) character then you should cut ties with them and find someone else.

                          But it was probably just a poor choice of words from someone who, let's face it, left college without the grades to go to university and found the first job they could that didn't involve wearing a hard hat.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                            I think it depends on where you are in the country.

                            I've got local electricians (midlands) where that's close to the minimum call-out fee.
                            You're right about call out fees but this is why I said it's too much if an EICR is done at the same time. I would pay no more than £10 per item as the incremental work is negligible...

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