Electrical Safety Certificates

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    #46
    Originally posted by ATC View Post
    Update. The Lords is the only hope of getting these regulations changed because it has gone through Committee. Housing Associations are entirely exempt. An installation that was adjudged to be perfectly safe in 2017 is to be condemned now. There will be a huge number of inert plastic consumer units sent to landfill and replaced with metal ones. I doubt that compliance with this demand on private sector landlords will be universal.
    You're right. I think we'll just have to ignore this law, and seek a judicial review any time one of us is prosecuted.

    Comment


      #47
      A new installation must conform absolutely to the 18th edition howeverI think the interpretation that an earlier installation must be brought up to these standards is incorrect and is due to a misinterpretation. To be clear:

      The Wiring Regulations are:

      BS7671:2018 is Requirements for Electrical Installations, IET Wiring Regulations, Eighteenth Edition. It contains the following, which are relevant to landlords:

      Introduction:

      BS7671:2018 Requirements for Electrical Installations was issued on 31st July 2018 and is intended to come in to force on 1st January 2019. Installations installed after 31st December 2018 are to comply with BS7671:2018.

      The Regulations apply to the design, erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations. Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading.


      Chapter 65 – Inspection and Testing:

      Paragraph 651.2 deals with periodic inspection and testing. Note 2 of this paragraph reiterates Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading.

      Paragraph 653.2 – contains two key elements: the requirement to report

      any damage, deterioration or defects or dangerous conditions; and
      any non-compliance with BS7671 which may give rise to danger.

      The first should be obvious to any landlord: if your installation is unsafe it requires remedy; the second again reiterates that non-compliance only requires remedy if it gives rise to danger.

      Paragraph 653.4 - contains the requirement to specify report intervals: the report shall indicate a recommended interval until the next inspection supported by an explanation for the recommendation. The interval should be 5 years for a rental property, if the electrician believes otherwise the comments should be justified.


      Comment


        #48
        Thanks. That's a relief. Now if I could only find an honest electrician, who won't claim that updates are needed, purely to make work for himself.

        Comment


          #49
          To be honest electricians will be so busy doing EICRs they won't need any extra work!

          Comment


            #50
            Had one done a few months ago. It was given a 'satisfactory' until 2022. The consumer unit originally put in was plastic in 2004, but it's high up in the hallway by the front door. Not really posing a risk. Was told in the future I will need to change it, but it's fine for now.

            Comment


              #51
              I am heartened to hear that there may be some electricians out there prepared to give a pass certificate where there is a well maintained plastic cased consumer unit. I haven't convinced our electrician that he can do so; he says furthermore that a lot of ceiling lights put in over the years breach the new rules because they allow a fire path from one floor to the one above and envisages installing a large number of fire hoods to achieve proper fire breaks. I think that these hoods are made of an intumescent material and in the event it gets hot they seal as with the strips on a fire door. He also says that because the electricity suppliers have been sued a few times here and there as a result of occasional voltage surges knocking out computers and LEDs there is a requirement to fit anti surge devices on a vast scale. I think that what we are looking at is a very expensive exercise for private landlords. The Government are not playing fair by exempting Housing Associations. Why shouldn't their tenants have these upgrades?
              Tangentially perhaps someone can answer me this; suppose a private landlord has let some flats to a housing association under a private leasing deal running a number of years (but less than 99), for the HA to sub-let to persons in housing need nominated by the local authority, with the lease being on the basis that the HA is responsible for all internal repairs. Is the private landlord liable to get an EICR even though he has no internal access and is not the competent landlord granting occupational lettings?

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by jpucng62 View Post
                A new installation must conform absolutely to the 18th edition howeverI think the interpretation that an earlier installation must be brought up to these standards is incorrect and is due to a misinterpretation. T
                Are you basing that on the Wiring Regulations or on the proposed "Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020"?

                Comment


                  #53
                  Based on the actual wording in the 18th edition - which is what the draft legislation is requiring LLs to meet.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    The legislation is no longer "draft". It went through SI committee last tuesday. The only way to get it amended is if someone in the Lords will ask a question either in chamber or the "Moses Room" (secondary committee rioom debating chamber of the Lords) and thus spark a debate. Personally I think the law is sufficiently unclear that it ought be clarified but I cant get any co-operation whatsoever from either NLA RLA or even the BPF to whom I have written in each case being a member of all three! The conclusion I draw is that these organisations supposedly existing for the benefit of the sector and as a Parliamentary voice for landlords were consulted (and perhaps didnt understand) and in the end the regulations were drawn with maximum friendliness to the Electrical Trades and minimum regard to Private landlords. The fact that Housing Associations are exempt indicates that this is prejudicial. There is still time, apparently; if we can articulate exactly the shortcomings of the regulations to get a debate on it going and clarification

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by jpucng62 View Post
                      Based on the actual wording in the 18th edition - which is what the draft legislation is requiring LLs to meet.
                      Ah, but you are just referring to what is required of an inspection.

                      The proposed regulations appear to require compliance with the entirety of the wiring regulations.
                      Although the following may just provide a get-out:
                      Introduction:

                      BS7671:2018 Requirements for Electrical Installations was issued on 31st July 2018 and is intended to come in to force on 1st January 2019. Installations installed after 31st December 2018 are to comply with BS7671:2018.

                      The Regulations apply to the design, erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations. Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by flyingfreehold View Post
                        There is still time, apparently; if we can articulate exactly the shortcomings of the regulations to get a debate on it going and clarification
                        I received the following yesterday in response to my attempt to put my concerns to the JCSI.
                        Thanks for contacting JCSI and highlighting your concerns about this statutory instrument. I am the Commons Clerk of the Committee.

                        You may find it helpful if I set out the different parliamentary scrutiny processes that draft statutory instruments go through and where this instrument is in the process.

                        JCSI scrutiny
                        JCSI provides technical scrutiny of the drafting of statutory instruments and does not look at policy (see our web pages for more information). The instrument you raise concerns about was considered by the Committee last week and no concerns about the instrument were raised.

                        SLSC scrutiny
                        The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee is a Lords Committee that looks at the policy merits of statutory instruments. It has also considered this instrument and wrote to the Government with some questions about the instrument – see para 14 and appendix 1 of its fourth report for these questions, the Government’s response and the Committee’s final comments.

                        Debate in the House of Commons
                        This instrument will be debated in either a delegated legislation committee or on the floor of the House before the House is asked to approve the instrument. A date for its debate has not yet been set. You could contact your local MP to highlight your concerns and ask them to speak in the debate.

                        Debate in the House of Lords
                        The instrument will also be debated in the House of Lords before the House is asked to approve it. You could contact a member of the Lords who speaks on these issues to raise your concerns.

                        This page will help you to find your local MP and the policy interests of Lords members: https://members.parliament.uk/

                        Do get in touch if you have any more questions about the Commons process.

                        For questions about the next stage in the Lords or about the SLSC report, please contact the SLSC team.

                        For future reference, the earlier you are able to draw your policy concerns to the attention of the SLSC team the better so that they can be taken into account when the Committee is considering instruments.

                        I hope that is helpful.
                        So it seems we each need to contact our MPs and some members of the Lords. (I did so yesterday)

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by MdeB View Post

                          Ah, but you are just referring to what is required of an inspection.

                          The proposed regulations appear to require compliance with the entirety of the wiring regulations.
                          Although the following may just provide a get-out:
                          Oh, well I think that's obviously what parliament are relying on.

                          However, I'm just imagining the 'jobsworth' attitude of electricians when you ask them to inspect an installation done to a previous standard. I had it myself at my HMO which was wired in 1998 when inspected in 2006.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            I have not had any EICRs done yet but have been told by my electrician that my plastic consumer units will be fine. Advisory only. My installations are 2007 and having seen photos of the units and carried out a couple of previous repairs does not forsee any issues.

                            What sort of prices are folk being quoted? Seven flats plus communal supply roughly £180 each. Seems quite a lot to me but he anticipates about half a day per unit, plus report writing.
                            Assume I know nothing.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              British Gas quoted me £400 for the London HMO, but have not been able to come up with an appointment. (In other words, they are unable to make a profit even at £400 while subcontracting the work to a local electrician.)

                              What a joke, eh?

                              Comment


                                #60
                                I wrote to the Prime Minister and have been trying to upload the letter in reply from the Ministry but unfortunately it is four times too many bytes. What they are basically saying is that it is not necessarily the case that your plastic consumer unit must be thrown away and replaced

                                Comment

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