Breaking Joint Letting agreement

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    #16
    Okay thanks I will re issue a new notice to quit the agreement tomorrow. with a end date, can I as if he still refuses to leave the flat what would be the out come them as they did mention that that would issue a section 21 and a eviction notice due to non payment of rent but have not yet done so

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      #17
      PS - send the notice 1st class and ensure you receive proof of postage. Otherwise you run the risk of missing another months notice.
      Any posts by myself are my opinion ONLY. They should never be taken as correct or factual without confirmation from a legal professional. All information is given without prejudice or liability.

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        #18
        Originally posted by wish View Post
        Okay thanks I will re issue a new notice to quit the agreement tomorrow. with a end date, can I as if he still refuses to leave the flat what would be the out come them as they did mention that that would issue a section 21 and a eviction notice due to non payment of rent but have not yet done so
        OK so when you issue this (and MAKE SURE you get the dates right!), this basically terminates the tenancy at the end of that notice to quit. You should as a matter of course ensure he receives a copy of this notice, although this isnt legally required.

        At this point, the joint tenancy ends. He may, or may not, remain in the property after this date. What happens then is nothing to do with you (although the agents will try to convince you otherwise). In practice, an implicit new tenancy is likely to be created with himself as the sole tenant.

        However, the top and bottom of it is that you must simply issue correct notice to quit and regardless of what happens after that end date, as long as it was valid, your further liabilities are stopped.
        Any posts by myself are my opinion ONLY. They should never be taken as correct or factual without confirmation from a legal professional. All information is given without prejudice or liability.

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          #19
          Thanks i will re issue this tomorrow, and see if that makes any difference, I will up date with any response on what the agency have said. thanks for you help so far

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            #20
            Just to add that the advice you have received from MrShed is exactly what you must do. You must pay the rent up to the end of that notice. You can if you wish sue your ex for their share of the rent. When the notice (correctly given) expires you walk away. And you must be able to prove it all. In addition to posting I would also hand deliver two copies of the identical notice (also within the correct timescale) and ask them to stamp and sign that it was received and return that copy to you.

            The "response" from the agent is irrelevant to what you do. You don't need their approval.

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              #21
              I would go to the CAB or Shelter if I were you. They might be able to help you get some compromise on the amount you owe as the Agent has been less than helpful.

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                #22
                The agent works for the landlord.
                I don't think they have any obligation to be helpful to the tenant.
                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                  I would go to the CAB or Shelter if I were you. They might be able to help you get some compromise on the amount you owe as the Agent has been less than helpful.
                  I really don't understand this? How would they have been helpful? I suppose they could have advised the tenant how to give valid notice so that they then be left with only one tenant from whom to claim rent or to sue when they failed to leave.

                  The OP just needs to follow the procedure. The amount owed is the rent until the tenancy ends -- can't see how Shelter will be of help here. Until the tenancy ends there is only one tenant to "compromise" with and that tenant is still in occupation.

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                    #24
                    I realise that the Agent works for the landlord and that the legal position on the notice is clear. However, the tenant is also the customer of the Agent and I don't think its acceptable for them to ignore the tenants communication for 5 months just because its not in their interest and knowing that the tenant believes they have given notice. Its a very cynical ploy that will end up costing the tenant unnecessarily. This is no way for a professional Agent to behave and I think its quite legitimate for a tenant to seek help to at least put moral (or PR if they're big enough) pressure on the Agent to come to a better financial arrangement.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                      However, the tenant is also the customer of the Agent
                      No they are not

                      Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                      and I don't think its acceptable for them to ignore the tenants communication for 5 months just because its not in their interest and knowing that the tenant believes they have given notice. Its a very cynical ploy.....
                      Can't see how it is a "ploy" - if anything it is the landlord who is damaged - L will (or should be) desperate to get rid of the tenant. If anyone should be cross it is the landlord (who IS the customer of the agent).

                      Hard to see how the agent (who has no relationship with the tenant) can be put in a position of giving legal advice to one half of a tenant how to screw over the other half. Even if the tenant is in some sense a "customer" so is the other tenant who has remained.

                      Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                      I don't think its acceptable for them to ignore the tenants communication for 5 months
                      They have not. The tenant informed them in October that she had left. If they had received proper notice the tenancy would have ended in November or December -- 4 weeks ago.


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                        #26
                        I agree that "someone" should be on the OP's side, but don't think it's the agent.

                        If the agent owes a fiduciary duty to the landlord (which I think that they do), it's impossible for them to also owe a duty to the tenant at the same time.

                        There's something a little odd about the series of events.
                        I can't imagine trying to resolve something for 5 months and, getting no response from emails and letters, not trying something else.
                        And I can't really imagine an agent receiving emails and letters simply not responding at all.
                        For a start, I can't imagine many agents who know much about what constitutes valid notice in a joint tenancy or who would be sure enough about it to think, this isn't valid so I'll just bin it.
                        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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                          #27
                          My reply is marked unapproved so I'm re-drafting the links in the hope it will get posted.

                          The CMA guidance for lettings professionals on consumer protection law
                          states in para 2.18 that the Agent should "Ensure that the tenant has clear, accurate information about what they need to do to give notice, and alert them if they get this wrong"

                          I think its likely that the Agent has breached the code of conduct that's part of the redress scheme they belong to at the very least, and its arguable that the Agent DOES owe the tenant a duty of care - see this blog post by Tessa Shepperson:
                          https://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/20...-care-tenants/

                          If I were this tenant, I certainly wouldn't just roll over and accept this debt.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by DPT57 View Post
                            If I were this tenant, I certainly wouldn't just roll over and accept this debt.
                            Let's be honest, neither would I.

                            In an ideal world, the agent (or landlord) would have to sue, and the questions that you have (rightly) raised could be put to the agent.
                            Once the tenancy is periodic, I think the onus is on them to mitigate the debt and they are clearly not doing that.

                            Although, if the OP has already agreed a payment plan, that approach might be difficult.

                            And I still find the 5 months elapsed, troubling.
                            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                              And I still find the 5 months elapsed, troubling.
                              Yes, in truth there isn't enough information in the original post to form a concrete view, but I guess I'm arguing more on a point of principle than a belief that everything is really as that argument assumes.

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                                #30
                                Several points here:

                                Absent agreement to the contrary, a notice to quit must end the tenancy at the end of a tenancy period and not a rent period, In the case of a statutory periodic tenancy the tenancy periods will always be known with certainty because the first day of the first period is the day after the fixed term ends. (Tenancy periods and rent periods may coincide, bur the important thing is to appreciate that conceptually they are not the same thing.)

                                When giving a notice to quit "saving words" should always be added in case you get the end date wrong. It is though desirable to insert the right date, but if you get it wrong the saving words will ensure the notice is valid - assuming of course that it is otherwise valid. An example of saving words in the case of a monthly tenancy is: "...on [date] or at the end of the period of the tenancy which will end next after the expiry of one month from the service upon you of this notice".

                                If you have served a notice which you want to argue is valid, but consider it prudent to serve a further notice to protect yourself in case the notice was invalid. you should accompany the notice with a letter* saying that the notice is served without prejudice to your right to assert that the earlier notice is valid. That is not strictly necessary as either the first notice is valid or it is not. If it is valid it ended the tenancy and serving the second notice will not change that. However, if you state that the notice is served without prejudice to your right to assert that the earlier notice is valid, you avoid an argument that the second notice concedes that the first notice is invalid.

                                I note what is said in post 27, but I am not sure that the law actually requires a landlord or an agent to inform a tenant if his notice is invalid. One would hope that a court would take notice of the guidance, but it can only be persuasive. Whatever the position, I think there have to be cases where it would be unconscionable for a landlord to be able to rely on the notice being invalid.

                                I also agree with the comment in post 27 that Wish should not roll over and pay what is demanded.

                                * Generally, if serving a notice to quit you should (a) draw up a notice which does nothing except give notice to quit, (b) put it in an envelope without any accompanying letter or other document and (c) if you want to say something else say it in a letter which you date and send the next day or later. That avoids the possibility of inadvertenly undermining the notice to quit.



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