Can I grant a non-AST letting? How?

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    Can I grant a non-AST letting? How?

    Before I start, I would like to make it clear that I am not looking for a way to make a tenancy into a 'non AST' but it is feedback I have heard from prospective tenants about other agents.

    Could the following scenario result in a tenancy agreement that was not an AST?

    6 month contract
    Landlord not resident in property
    Two individuals in mid 20's
    Property privately owned by an individual landlord
    Rent under £25 000 pa

    I believed that this would legally have to be an AST and therefore any deposit would have to be protect by the tenancy deposit legislation but I am interested to see if I am mistaken.

    Kind regards,

    John
    Last edited by Editor; 17-04-2008, 20:04 PM.

    #2
    There is no reason why it can not be a A.T contract as long as it is worded that way. Downside for the LL would be the loss of use of a S.21.
    Deposit would not need to be protected.

    Comment


      #3
      Interesting, makes sense but it seems very risky for a LL as the tenant could 'up and leave' at any time so you could in theory be changing tenants every month.

      I would appreciate it if you could clarify something for me. (I don't use A.T's).

      A tenant wants a short term let of two months. If an AST is used the tenant could turn around and say he won't go unil he gets a section 21, which will then be 6 months (in total) before he leaves.

      If an AT is used on a period tenancy then how does the LL gain possession (assumming a S8 can't be used?). Evidently, the tenant could leave after one month (if they gave their notice straight away).

      Many thanks,

      John
      Last edited by Editor; 17-04-2008, 20:04 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        LL can't, that's the risk you take if you issue AST with fixed term of only 2 months.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Colincbayley View Post
          There is no reason why it can not be a A.T contract as long as it is worded that way. Downside for the LL would be the loss of use of a S.21.
          Deposit would not need to be protected.
          I agree. To ensure that it is an SAT, not an AST, include appropriate clause complying with paragraph 3 in Schedule 2A to 1988 Act.
          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

          Comment


            #6
            I understand that is the risk of the an AST with 2 months as essentially you are allowing them to stay for 6 if they wish.

            But with regards to an AT, how does the LL gain possession at the end of the 2 month period or any other period that an AT is set for.

            This is all out of curiousity as it is not a route I will be using.

            Kind regards,

            John
            Last edited by Editor; 17-04-2008, 20:04 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by MaverickPropertyManagemen View Post
              I understand that is the risk of the an AST with 2 months as essentially you are allowing them to stay for 6 if they wish.

              But with regards to an AT, how does the LL gain possession at the end of the 2 month period or any other period that an AT is set for.

              This is all out of curiousity as it is not a route I will be using.

              Kind regards,

              John
              AT= SAT or AST. Be specific here.

              If you meant an SAT:
              a. L cannot use s.21;
              b. L can still use s.8; but
              c. otherwise, T is irremovable unless/until T wants to go voluntarily.
              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

              Comment


                #8
                I meant AT as in Assured Tenancy as opposed to AST meaning Assured Shorthold Tenancy.

                What does the S infront of the AT mean?

                It seems interesting to me that a LL who knows that he is not going to need his property back can let their house out on an AT (assured tenancy) and completely avoid the deposit legislation, with no problem as long as they know they aren't going to need the property back.

                Assumming a SAT and AT are the same!

                Many thanks,

                John
                Last edited by Editor; 17-04-2008, 20:05 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by MaverickPropertyManagemen View Post
                  I meant AT as in Assured Tenancy as opposed to AST meaning Assured Shorthold Tenancy.

                  What does the S infront of the AT mean?

                  It seems interesting to me that a LL who knows that he is not going to need his property back can let their house out on an AT (assured tenancy) and completely avoid the deposit legislation, with no problem as long as they know they aren't going to need the property back.

                  Assumming a SAT and AT are the same!

                  Many thanks,

                  John
                  Look:
                  Any residential letting within 1988 is an AT (Assured Tenancy).
                  Since 28 Feb. 1997, an AT is an AST (Assured Shorthold Tenancy) UNLESS L opts out and makes it into an SAT (Standard Assured Tenancy).
                  So ASTs + SATs = ATs.
                  JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                  1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                  2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                  3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                  4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                  Comment


                    #10
                    In that case I was referring to a SAT rather than an AST although some of my reference material seems to refer to a SAT as a assured tenancy rather than a standard assured tenancy.

                    Thank you for your explanations.

                    Kind regards,

                    John
                    Last edited by Editor; 17-04-2008, 20:05 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by MaverickPropertyManagemen View Post
                      In that case I was referring to a SAT rather than an AST although some of my reference material seems to refer to a SAT as a assured tenancy rather than a standard assured tenancy.
                      Yes. The Act does not use the SAT definition which is more just a convenient way to describe an AT that's not an AST.
                      All the provisions in Chapter I of the 1988 Act [i.e. s.1-s.19] apply to both types of AT.
                      JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                      1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                      2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                      3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                      4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                      Comment


                        #12
                        So just to clarify, and as I understand it, there is, at the moment, no legal way to let to a tenant for LESS than 6 months and for the landlord still legally to be able to apply for vacant possession before 6 months are up?

                        There are many situations where tenants want very short term lets and the law seems to be working against tenants in this case as LLs aren't able to let to them without taking HUGE risks and so won't now let for less than 6 months.

                        Is there anything in the legal pipeline to address this problem??

                        Just curious.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          L can let to T for less than six months, but:
                          a. (AST) L cannot obtain a s.21 Possession Order that operates before six months; and
                          b. (SAT) L cannot use s.21 at all.

                          However, L can:
                          a. let inside 1988 Act by using SAT and serving an applicable pre-tenancy Notice (e.g. under g1, if L used to be owner-occupier); or
                          b. let outside 1988 Act (e.g. to company, or at over £25 000 rent p.a.)
                          JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                          1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                          2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                          3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                          4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            So I am right in thinking that there's nothing you can do to let safely because of your first two provisos:

                            "a. (AST) L cannot obtain a s.21 Possession Order that operates before six months; and
                            b. (SAT) L cannot use s.21 at all."

                            and if your property doesn't fall under the other two situations you outline:

                            "a. let inside 1988 Act by using SAT and serving an applicable pre-tenancy Notice (e.g. under g1, if L used to be owner-occupier); or
                            b. let outside 1988 Act (e.g. to company, or at over £25 000 rent p.a.)"

                            I'm sure a lot of LLs would let for shorter periods (summer lets for example) if there was a safe way of doing it.

                            By the way, how long would a person have to live in a property in order for them to be legally regarded as a previous owner occupier?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by bagpuss View Post
                              So I am right in thinking that there's nothing you can do to let safely because of your first two provisos:

                              "a. (AST) L cannot obtain a s.21 Possession Order that operates before six months; and
                              b. (SAT) L cannot use s.21 at all."

                              and if your property doesn't fall under the other two situations you outline:

                              "a. let inside 1988 Act by using SAT and serving an applicable pre-tenancy Notice (e.g. under g1, if L used to be owner-occupier); or
                              b. let outside 1988 Act (e.g. to company, or at over £25 000 rent p.a.)"

                              I'm sure a lot of LLs would let for shorter periods (summer lets for example) if there was a safe way of doing it.

                              By the way, how long would a person have to live in a property in order for them to be legally regarded as a previous owner occupier?
                              Summer let may be OK if it's a holiday let: outside Act because of paragraph 9 in Schedule 1.
                              JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                              1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                              2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                              3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                              4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                              Comment

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