Does this constitute notice?

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    Does this constitute notice?

    Hi,

    The tenancy agreement was a rolling 6 month period, but after out tenant had difficulty paying and approached the Housing Options team from her local authority they suggested amending to a rolling 1 month agreement to reduce the arrears. We obliged and sent an addendum for the tenant to sign and she has signed and returned, but with what looks like her serving notice upon us.

    Her precise wording is;

    "unfortunance circumstances. I will not be bale to say in the property as it is to Expenses. and not suitable for my needs?"

    Does this qualify as notice being served upon us by the tenant?

    I should point out that the tenant is registered disabled with a low IQ and that the local authority have previously suggested that if we serve her notice we would be at risk of a discrimination claim. Is there any risk of such a claim in the event that the tenant themselves have served notice? I would think not, but would like to be sure of course.

    We are somewhat hopeful that this constitutes notice and that there is no legal recourse here, because during her time at the property she has been unable to use the bathroom facilities as they were designed and has on numerous occasions flooded the property causing extensive damage which will only continue should she remain there (and we are advised to exercise caution if considering eviction)

    Finally, can anyone recommend any insurers to cover the risk of being sued? While we do not expect the tenant to pursue any sort of legal claim and do not feel that there would be one, the remarks from the local authority have us on edge!




    Thanks,

    D

    #2
    I think there are mental capacity issues here. It seem unlikely that she understands that she is making herself intentionally homeless. If there is no family to help, she may need an Independent Mental Capacity Advocate.

    I don't understand a rolling six month tenancy. Do you really mean a contractual periodic tenancy with rent payable at six month intervals?

    I think this is going to be a difficult one. If there is a solution I suspect it has to be based on the problems caused, not on the underlying learning disabilities. I think you may also need to bring in adult social services.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Silmaril View Post
      "unfortunance circumstances. I will not be bale to say in the property as it is to Expenses. and not suitable for my needs?"

      Does this qualify as notice being served upon us by the tenant?
      No, there's no definite day specified explicitly or implicitly that would comply with the requirements of a notice to quit or for that matter sufficient to allow the landlord to accept an otherwise invalid notice.
      I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

      I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

      Comment


        #4
        Hi,

        Yes, while we wanted a standard AST the letting agent agreed terms with the Council and the Trust (her source of income) and signed on our behalf committing to;

        such rent being payable by standing order to the landlord(s) in advance by the following instalments of £xxxx.xx being 6 months payable in advance on the commencement of the let and then 6 monthly thereafter'.

        While this is not what we expected nor wanted, we became bound when they signed it on our behalf

        What she's trying to do is force the Housing Options team to re-home her elsewhere, we know that if she serves us notice that works against her and so does she, this has been discussed in the presence of council representatives.

        She has verbally asked us to serve her notice as well as stating verbally to us that she is serving us notice. We explain that this must be in writing or we cannot accept it, and this is the nearest thing that we have seen.

        I'm not aware of any family, her income comes from a trust fund set up by her mum before she passed away.

        She has support around her in the form of;

        Housing Options (they have a history of re-homing her, she has moved house 5 times in 3 years through various private lets (suspect other Landlords are evicting her and the cycle repeats)
        Housing Standards - They deal with any damage that she causes, forcing the hands of the landlords like myself to repair threatening improvement orders
        Occupational Health - They assess for alterations to the properties and advise her on how to get by in the short term and so on

        With all that council support around her, you would think that she is getting well cared for but we fear she isn't.

        Ultimately we know that if we evict then that will help her, but with the council threatening legal action if we do (they did this in an 'unofficial but threatening' capacity!) we're very on edge indeed.

        We approached a specialist eviction company and as soon as we made reference to Housing Standards (though no improvement orders have been issued etc) they said they would not get involved.

        We approached a solicitor who came in at £230/hr and envisaged needing 2 hours before starting work just to understand the complexity of the case.

        We feel that we should either;

        Write to accept her notice, quoting the minimum notice term, offering flexibility should she prefer a different exit date and offering that she get in touch if we have misunderstood. We suspect she will liaise with the council regarding this, but who knows?

        If that fails then she hasn't really agreed the addendum and so is in arrears and we'd be looking at a Section 8 Ground 8 potentially in 2 months time if either an addendum is not signed or a payment made

        We'd very much like solid insurance to protect against any course of action from the council who said they would pass the case to their legal team if we evict her - suggestions welcome!

        Thanks,
        D

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by KTC View Post

          No, there's no definite day specified explicitly or implicitly that would comply with the requirements of a notice to quit or for that matter sufficient to allow the landlord to accept an otherwise invalid notice.
          Thanks, advice on a legal forum was also sought and they suggested;

          "
          I think that would be entirely reasonable to write back with direct reference to her intention and say;

          'As per the tenancy agreement a minimum of two months notice is required so we have calculated the date you wish to forfeit the tenancy as xxx though we may be open to considering another date if mutually acceptable

          If we have misunderstood your letter please contact us as soon as possible'

          "

          The individual providing the advice is more of a council tax law specialist than anything, but I cant see anything wrong with his suggestion?

          Thanks,
          D

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Silmaril View Post
            The tenancy agreement was a rolling 6 month period, but after out tenant had difficulty paying and approached the Housing Options team from her local authority they suggested amending to a rolling 1 month agreement to reduce the arrears. We obliged
            If you want her out, then that was a mistake. It makes S8G8 harder.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Silmaril View Post

              Thanks, advice on a legal forum was also sought and they suggested;

              "
              I think that would be entirely reasonable to write back with direct reference to her intention and say;

              'As per the tenancy agreement a minimum of two months notice is required so we have calculated the date you wish to forfeit the tenancy as xxx though we may be open to considering another date if mutually acceptable

              If we have misunderstood your letter please contact us as soon as possible'

              "

              The individual providing the advice is more of a council tax law specialist than anything, but I cant see anything wrong with his suggestion?

              Thanks,
              D
              And when she does not move out and you go to court, what is the judge going to say?
              Judges don't like making people homeless

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Silmaril View Post
                If that fails then she hasn't really agreed the addendum and so is in arrears and we'd be looking at a Section 8 Ground 8 potentially in 2 months time if either an addendum is not signed or a payment made
                s8g8 is not going to help you if the tenancy is six-monthly. s8g8 only provides for tenancy where rent is payable weekly, fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly. You could try the discretionary g10 and g11, but it's discretionary....

                Originally posted by Silmaril View Post
                'As per the tenancy agreement a minimum of two months notice is required so we have calculated the date you wish to forfeit the tenancy as xxx though we may be open to considering another date if mutually acceptable

                If we have misunderstood your letter please contact us as soon as possible'
                A NTQ need to be in writing and specify explicitly or implicitly a expiry date which is either valid in accordance with the contractual periodic tenancy agreement if such a clause exist, or common law as modified by statue if such a clause doesn't exist or statutory periodic. A back and forth conversation that you are suggesting is not a notice to quit. At most, you would end up agreeing to a contract for a future surrender which doesn't by itself ends a tenancy, and that's assuming you meet the legal requirement for such a contract which your suggested approach may make difficult.
                I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by KTC View Post

                  s8g8 is not going to help you if the tenancy is six-monthly. s8g8 only provides for tenancy where rent is payable weekly, fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly. You could try the discretionary g10 and g11, but it's discretionary....
                  I've just double checked that because i obviously read it wrong last time and you're, of course, correct. The addendum would possibly help there or possibly look like a course of action to the courts who knows.

                  Part of me thinks that i can just sit back and let Housing Options do their thing, shes moved around a lot in 3 years she's said - always with their involvement - she would refer to a lady by name who kept putting her in inappropriate houses.

                  You'd think i could just S21 but its the fear or recourse from the council that puts us off.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Pretty sure we could S8G1 if me and the fiancee broke up (two birds, one stone?! )

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Silmaril View Post
                      I should point out that the tenant is registered disabled with a low IQ and that the local authority have previously suggested that if we serve her notice we would be at risk of a discrimination claim.
                      D
                      I almost put this in the unintentional humour thread. You don't believe this nonsense, do you?
                      To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Please complete and paste https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...ll-new-posters for this T.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                          I almost put this in the unintentional humour thread. You don't believe this nonsense, do you?
                          I totally agree, a section 21 notice has no reason stated and if pressed, you are evicting a tenant who can't afford to pay the rent.
                          Where's the discrimination?
                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            To me, the use of section 21 is what makes an action for discrimination possible. Generally the defence for discrimination is to show that you followed a documented decision making process that was based on rules that had a legitimate purpose. It is therefore best if those rules are in the tenancy agreement and the eviction is for breach of the agreement.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It would be discriminating against everyone else, who you have no problem issuing a s21 notice to, if you don't issue one to a disabled tenant.
                              To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

                              Comment

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