Notice Period

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  • MdeB
    replied
    Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
    Suggest you post keys back in through letter-box - get a witness, email them that info before 23:59 27th .... or they might argue tenancy not ended 27th..
    The tenancy ends by valid NTQ by the tenant; LL arguement cannot make it otherwise.

    They might try to argue that possession was not returned on 27th.

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  • theartfullodger
    replied
    Suggest you post keys back in through letter-box - get a witness, email them that info before 23:59 27th .... or they might argue tenancy not ended 27th..

    Leave a comment:


  • Dazzadog
    replied
    Hi All

    Thanks for the advice. We've decide to give 2 months notice which will end on 27th December - They will be on Xmas holidays so it should be interesting to see if they turn up and get the keys - We very much doubt this, but it won't be our problem

    Again thanks for the advice

    Darren

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  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    The snag with the standard saving wording in an NTQ is that it presupposes that you know how much notice needs to be given. So, for a tenancy requiring a month's notice you say it expires: "on [date] or at the end of the period of the tenancy which will end next after the expiry of one month from the service upon you of this notice". The notice achieves certainty because the recipient knows when the notice was served. I cannot remember the precise rules for a notice to quit to be valid, but I think it needs to be clear on its face. If I am right, then a notice to the effect that it expires on one date if one month's notice is needed but on a later fate if two months' notice is needed is not clear on its face.

    Whatever the position, a single notice would need to be carefully worded. There is a risk of getting it wrong if you have no precedent to follow and if you do that you have served no notice at all. The risk is not worth if it certainty can be achieved by serving two notices.

    If you serve a month's notice which is valid if one month's notice is required it will end the tenancy. The two months' notice you serve the next day will be of no effect as you have already served notice ending the tenancy.

    If you serve a month's notice and it is of no effect because two months' notice is required it will not end the tenancy. However, any valid two months' notice you serve the next day will end the tenancy.

    It will be important to ensure that the month's notice is served or deemed served before the two months' notice.

    If it gets to court there can be no argument that the tenancy has not ended, only when it ended.

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    The notion that you need to go to court to know when a tenancy should actually end says a lot about the quality of the tenancy agreement.

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  • KTC
    replied
    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    As no one seems able to say for sure what that date is, would that be sufficiently unequivocal for notice?
    It may take a court to definitively decide what that date is and hence whether e.g. any rent is owed, but it's unequivocal as far as it gives only one possible valid date.

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by KTC View Post
    So a clause that basically says the earliest date possible in accordance with the tenancy agreement?
    As no one seems able to say for sure what that date is, would that be sufficiently unequivocal for notice?

    Might as well say the day of my John-Paul's next birthday - it's a definite and valid determinable date, but it doesn't help the tenant or the landlord in any meaningful way.

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  • KTC
    replied
    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    My first thought, but I realised that that is not possble as two different lengths of notice are involved.
    Why not? AFAIC, the only requirement is that one valid date has to have primacy so it can be worked out which is the definite end date. I'm pretty sure there was a case where the NTQ was basically just a saving clause leaving the recipient to work out date meant but was okay because it was possible to work out the actual date. So a clause that basically says the earliest date possible in accordance with the tenancy agreement?

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  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    Originally posted by KTC View Post
    One notice with an appropriately worded saving clause?
    My first thought, but I realised that that is not possble as two different lengths of notice are involved.

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  • KTC
    replied
    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
    I think the answer is to give one month's notice and then the next day two months' notice.
    One notice with an appropriately worded saving clause?

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  • Lawcruncher
    replied
    If the tenancy is contractual I think it is in fact monthly because (assuming the rent days are monthly) it can be ended in any month, that is on 12 days in the year. If it was two monthly it could only be ended on 6 days in the year. What we would have is monthly tenancy (because the periods are monthly) which requires two months' notice - such a thing is possible.

    However, that is not important as the point is that either the tenancy is contractual and two months' notice is needed or it is statutory and (assuming the rent is paid monthly) one month's notice is given. JPK's suggestion is fine, but overlooks the point that that if there is a deposit an adjudicator may find in the landlord's favour. I expect that if Dazzadog pays two months' rent he will want two months' occupation. Another snag is that if he gives a month's notice when he should have given two that he will then have to give two month's notice meaning yet another month's rent will be payable. I think the answer is to give one month's notice and then the next day two months' notice.

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    Just to be clear, the choice isn't between one and two months.
    If the tenancy is a contractual periodic tenancy, it would be two months if that's what the original tenancy agreement required.
    If it's a statutory periodic tenancy, it's a minimum of a month ending at the end of a tenancy period (which sounds like the 26th of the month).

    Practically, I would suggest that the agent/landlord don't really want a tenancy to end over the Christmas holidays and so you should give notice now to end on 26th November.
    If the legal brains here can't be sure it's a contractual tenancy or not, I doubt the agent/landlord would want to go legal to try and enforce it.

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  • mariner
    replied
    Correct, well spotted.

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  • MdeB
    replied
    Originally posted by mariner View Post
    Derren , you srill have an AST, but we are trying to decide if it is a Statutory or Periodic Tenancy.
    That should be "Statutory or Contractual Periodic Tenancy".

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  • MdeB
    replied
    Originally posted by Dazzadog View Post
    leaseholder64 1) By making it clear in the original tenancy agreement that the tenancy will become a “contractual periodic tenancy” after the fixed period (the word “contractual” should be stated).
    It is not necessary for the word "contractual" to be stated.

    It is contractual because the wording of the contract says it will happen.

    As an example, the High Court accepted that
    the landlord agrees to let the premises known as…..for a term of [6 or 12] months and thereafter continuing on a monthly basis unless terminated by either party under the provisions of Clause 3
    meant hat the tenancy became contractual periodic at the end of the initial term (http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2016/1839.html "Leeds v. Broadley").

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