Increasing rent under an Assured Periodic Tenancy

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    #31
    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    I'm not knowledgable enough to be 100% certain, but as far as I know, if a tenancy was eligible for rent control it must be regulated.

    If the tenancy was regulated, it can't become unregulated regardless unless the tenant dies or the tenancy ends.
    And the tenancy can be inherited, if the tenant dies, and remains regulated until it's inherited a second time or the inherited tenancy ends.

    So it shouldn't be possible for it to be an Assured Tenancy, unless it's been inherited twice already.
    So unless the tenant in 2016 had inherited the tenancy and had died in the interim, it seems unlikely.

    I don't know what the specific process is, sorry.
    All understood. What you're saying does make sense. Thanks for your advice.

    Let's see if there are any other posters who can offer any further info. Thanks again.

    Comment


      #32

      If it is a regulated tenancy ?

      Both LL or T can apply for a fair rent to be registered using form RR1.

      If LL applies for fair rent a copy of the RR1 is sent to the Tenant by law, the rent officer makes the decision after 28 days and copies are sent to both parties and decision is registered on line.

      LL and T can appeal to 1st tier property tribunal if they disagree with rent officer decision with in 28 days, if LL or T disagreed with 1st tier property tribunal, there is No appeal to 2st tier property tribunal, the only way to appeal by judicial review in the High court.

      Regarding succession rights, a RT can be succeed twice, but this depends on a lot of factors and is pointless going into at this stage as OP doesn't know if its a RT or AT ?

      Just to note

      The Rent service knows comes under VOA and rent assessment committee is know as 1st tier property tribunal.
      Thunderbirds are go

      Comment


        #33
        The spam filters on this forum need to be change, post seem to be disappearing left, right and centre.

        Two posts I made early then I edited for spelling reasons get deleted by the spam filters.

        I ended up copying posts into Word or Note pad just encase the spam filters strike again !

        This is getting really Annoying .
        Thunderbirds are go

        Comment


          #34
          Thanks for that information

          Originally posted by 45002 View Post

          Regarding succession rights, a RT can be succeed twice, but this depends on a lot of factors and is pointless going into at this stage as OP doesn't know if its a RT or AT ?
          I suppose the only thing that would suggest that the property is currently let under an Assured Periodic Tenancy rather than it being under a Regulated Tenancy are the 3No. Form 4b’s which were included within the legal pack as these all specifically refer to an Assured Periodic Tenancy.

          The two earliest forms dated in 2009 and 2012 are headed ‘Landlord’s Notice Proposing a New Rent Under an Assured Periodic Tenancy of premises situated in England’ and the most recent one dated in 2016 is headed ‘Form Prescribed for the Purposes of Section 13(2) of the Housing Act 1988 - Housing Act 1988 Section 13(2) as amended by the Regulatory Reform (Assured Periodic Tenancies)(Rent Increases) Order 2003’.

          On that basis and with no other tenancy information currently available or having been provided pre-auction, would I be within my rights to work on the basis of the Tenancy being an Assured Periodic Tenancy, rather than a Regulated Tenancy?

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by 45002 View Post
            The spam filters on this forum need to be change, post seem to be disappearing left, right and centre.

            Two posts I made early then I edited for spelling reasons get deleted by the spam filters.

            I ended up copying posts into Word or Note pad just encase the spam filters strike again !

            This is getting really Annoying .
            Agree entirely. It's happened to me a couple of times today and yesterday when I tried to edit posts. I have just had to re-type the above post out again from scratch due to it being considered as spam when I tried to edit it!!!

            Comment


              #36
              There are succession rights for Assured tenancy, but again is pointless going into until the OP meets the tenants and see what ever paper work that exists and is correct.
              Thunderbirds are go

              Comment


                #37
                Indeed: And find out when tenant (yes, TENANT! ) says they 1st moved in - AT or AST paperwork may be incorrect and invalid if they moved in early enough.

                Due diligence,......
                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                Comment


                  #38
                  OP, ffs 1996 suggests a Regulated Rent Act Tenancy, where few original TA's survive but T should be Registered.
                  Everyone has offered advice, which you have subs failed conspiculously failed to respond..
                  I refer you to my post 26.
                  Either you want our help or do not?

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Mariner – Regarding your Post #26 which read:

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    I'm guessing it is a Rent Act T, so look up the address on the Fair Rent Register online for Registration etc.

                    Who buys a Property with a sitting T, without finding out when the T first moved in, unless 'as cheap as chips'?
                    My responses regarding the fair rent register which you mentioned, together with some further information are in my Post # 27 which read:

                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    One problem with the discussion is that there's no such thing as an Assured Periodic Tenancy.
                    It could be a periodic assured tenancy or a periodic assured shorthold tenancy.

                    The concern is that it probably isn't either of those things.
                    For a periodic tenancy of either of those things the rent assessment committee would compare the rent demanded by a landlord to the market rent.
                    So either you are mistaken about the market rent being £650 pcm or the tenancy type is more regulated, where the rent assessment committee considers the amount of the increase as one of the factors and doesn't give much regard to the market rent.

                    If the rent has been assessed since 2003, it should show up here - https://www.gov.uk/check-register-rents
                    Originally posted by MR M View Post

                    The Auctioneers originally noted the tenancy as being Regulated. They subsequently issued an update prior to the auction advising that the Tenancy was not regulated but was an Assured Periodic Tenancy.
                    The rent achievable for similar properties in the street is definitely £650 pcm,

                    Via the link that you have kindly provided, the property does appear on the register.
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    When did they move in (the key date is before or after 15 January 1989)
                    Originally posted by MR M View Post

                    It is noted on the register that the Tenancy commenced in March 1966.
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    Do they have a copy of the tenancy agreement?
                    Originally posted by MR M View Post
                    I will ask the Tenant but I did previously ask the Auctioneers if any Tenancy Agreement existed and they said that there wasn't one in existence.
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    Have they signed any agreements subsequently?
                    Originally posted by MR M View Post
                    I will ask the Tenant.
                    In answer to your question:

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    Who buys a Property with a sitting T, without finding out when the T first moved in, unless 'as cheap as chips'?
                    The answer is I bought one and as noted in my Post #10 which read:

                    Originally posted by MR M View Post
                    I bought the property for significantly below market value.
                    Turning to your latest Post #38

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    OP, ffs 1996 suggests a Regulated Rent Act Tenancy, where few original TA's survive but T should be Registered.
                    Can you expand on this as I am not sure what you are advising here

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    Everyone has offered advice, which you have subs failed conspiculously failed to respond.
                    I have responded to all of the posts and provided further information as best as I can. If you let me know what other questions you believe I have not answered, I will answer them, again as best as I can.

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    I refer you to my post 26.
                    Please see my response regarding your Post #26 above which was responded to in my Post #27

                    Originally posted by mariner View Post
                    Either you want our help or do not?
                    Obviously I do. I am on here asking for help with a tenancy type that I am not familiar with.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Rather surprisingly, I have today been provided with a copy of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy which the Tenant signed back in 2005. I am therefore not sure why the previous Landlord issued their rent increase notices on Forms for an Assured Periodic Tenancy when the current Tenancy is an AST?

                      I am due to complete on the purchase of the property shortly. Given that I now have confirmation that the property is let on an AST as opposed to an Assured Periodic Tenancy, what is my position on completion regarding the Tenancy?

                      a) Presumably on completion, the Tenants current AST will expire and if they wanted to remain in the property, I would need to have the Tenant sign a new AST with me noted as the Landlord?
                      b) Given that my new agreement would be an AST, am I entitled to increase the rent to £650 ie current market value
                      c) If the Tenant either does not accept the new rent amount or refuses to sign my AST and accept my tenancy requirements, what is my position then?

                      Comment


                        #41
                        If the tenancy was previously a regulated tenancy, the AST isn't valid and would have no effect.

                        If the tenancy was a regulated tenancy and has been inherited, the AST may be valid.

                        The starting point is whether the tenant on the AST has been the tenant since 1966 or not.

                        You need a lot more information than you currently have available to you and I'm a little surprised that your conveyancer has let it get this far. If you've already exchanged and are about to complete, I would be discussing this with them as a matter of some urgency.


                        As noted previously, there is no such thing as an Assured Periodic Tenancy so that was always a red herring.
                        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                        Comment


                          #42
                          1 - No that is not the case. You are catastrophically misinformed about all the elements of this potentially disastrous purchase.
                          2 - Your tenant doesn't have to agree a new AST.
                          3 - You are bound by the tenancy that exists. You simply become the landlord. If the AST is not valid, you become the landlord of a regulated tenancy.
                          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Reading this thread again and going on what the OP posted so far.

                            There was a Regulated tenant and died, the current tenant has a Assured Tenancy under succession rights.

                            Signing a AST will not take away the rights of a existing Assured Tenancy.

                            Kahlon v Isherwood http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2011/602.html

                            more here https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2011/05/assuredly/

                            OP walking into a minefield buying this property and should pull out IMHO
                            Thunderbirds are go

                            Comment


                              #44
                              PS:

                              Originally posted by jpkeates View Post

                              As noted previously, there is no such thing as an Assured Periodic Tenancy so that was always a red herring.
                              Looking a Form 4 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/assured-...y-forms#form-4

                              Its says Assured Periodic Tenancy on the form, in the notes Part 17 it says

                              where the tenancy came into existence on the death of the previous tenant who had a regulated tenancy under the Rent Act 1977
                              Which would point to this beaning a Assured Tenancy arising from the death of a regulated tenant.

                              Again the AST the tenant was supposed to have signed isn't worth the paper its printed on, see above post
                              Kahlon v Isherwood


                              Thunderbirds are go

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Well that's my learning experience for the day.
                                Originally posted by 45002 View Post
                                Again the AST the tenant was supposed to have signed isn't worth the paper its printed on, see above post [/FONT]Kahlon v Isherwood
                                Unless the current tenant is the second successor, in which case I think it would be an assured tenancy (although it's clear my grasp of this issue isn't as firm as I thought it was!)
                                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                                Comment

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