S21 confusion documents not issued prior

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    S21 confusion documents not issued prior

    Guys I have a question .

    I issued a tenancy in april 2016 the tenancy agreement was signed. I gave keys to the tenancy 1st march 2016 and protected the deposit and gave him relevant paperwork BUT I didnt get any proof I issued the paperwork.

    So 20th april i re did everything and got tenant to sign co forming receipt of all relevant docs eg gas, EPC, right to rent.

    I issued a new AST 8 months ago, and have proof all relevant docs issued .

    I've issued s21 , a question will the fact that I issued the original 1st documents 20 days after they moved in cause problems for me ?

    Thanks

    #2
    I'm confused. A tenancy usually starts when you give them the keys because they then take possession. Your post says this was 1 March 2016. Did they move-in then? If so then you issued the paperwork 51 days after the tenancy began not 20. If that paperwork included any deposit prescribed information then its outside the 30 day limit and you would be liable to pay a penalty if the tenant sues you, although serving it late wouldn't affect the s21 notice. If the paperwork included a gas safety certificate then it would invalidate the s21 notice as you have to be able to show that you gave it to the tenant before they moved in. Other papework can usually be served late, although the tenancy agreement might be an issue. What is the start date of the agreement you gave them? You may have given them an undocumented periodic tenancy from 1 March and then a fixed term tenancy from 20 April.

    Comment


      #3
      Ok just to clarify it was actually the 1st of March that the ast started they moved in on the 28th of February as they asked for a little bit of extra time the moving I gave them the keys and then I issued paperwork on the 20th of March for everything the only thing I have proof of is that the ast was signed on time

      I'm pretty sure I did give them the documentation I gave them the keys but I can't prove this only prove that I gave it to them 20 days later

      Comment


        #4
        If they argue you only gave them the documents when you gave it the 2nd time round, then you (probably) won't be able to give any s21 notice.
        I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

        I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

        Comment


          #5
          Really as in ever issue an s21 so how on earth I would get them out

          Comment


            #6
            You can try s21? If you did give it before the tenancy start, the tenant may not challenge it.

            Any valid s8 ground, in particularly g1?

            A relevant appeal is going through the Court of Appeal at the moment, the judgment may or may not be beneficial to you. Don't know how long that's going to take.
            I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

            I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

            Comment


              #7
              If you did not serve the tenants with a copy of the current GSC before they occupied the property it's a grey area and you will be reliant on luck if the notice is challenged. If you did not serve a copy of the GSC on all tenants in the last 12 months OR a copy of the current How to Rent at the start of the current tenancy, or the latest version before service of the S21 your S21 is invalid. The outcome of any legal challenge will be evidence based.

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks for your thoughts guy is so yeah this is correct that for sure I am not able to prove that I served the correct documents prior to the tenant moving in and I have served them on three other occasions since as we have renewed the ast everything has been renewed including the positive being we protected just to be safe

                I'm hoping the judges see some kind of common sense here that the Mechanics for the S21 are an essential tool for landlords and that the fact that a gas safety certificate although insignificant should not appear to be able to disrupt such a mechanism that has such importance.

                realistically if I were a judge I would issue the following that all relevant paperwork needs to be reissued before and S21 can be considered valid the idea that a gas safety certificates or EPC came in the 87 can stay in a cup of tea until effectively they die by assuming they do not reach any section 8 notices is unbelievable.

                was there a question I have been reading the grounds and they do appear to be to grounds that offer mandatory repossession those are Saturday landlord wishes to sell and that the landlord wishes to move back into the property do you guys think this could be an alternative option?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by blinko View Post
                  I'm hoping the judges see some kind of common sense here that the Mechanics for the S21 are an essential tool for landlords and that the fact that a gas safety certificate although insignificant should not appear to be able to disrupt such a mechanism that has such importance.
                  I have to respond to this.

                  Whether you are pro-landlord or pro-tenant, the safety of the occupiers are a hell of a lot more important than the ability of a landlord to evict a tenant without grounds.
                  I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                  I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Of course but the challenge is not that the safety is is not being observed because for example consider the gas equipment to be faulty in the property blows up house burnt down everybody loses so so for me I would like to think that this is common sense.

                    requesting here appears to be and for me certainly is timing of the issuing of these documents best take for example the EPC what is the effect of issuing this late or it being incorrect on even existing yet in the case of S21 one it is totally able to prevent an S21 from ever being issued yet it's totally insignificant on the effect of the Italian their ability to enjoy the property and the landlord's only to provide such a property which is desirable in enough for tenants to enjoy

                    Your thoughts ?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      What's the Italian's got to do with it?
                      Annual GSC is a Stat Req for Gas Safety. EPC is to improve min thermal (en ergy) levels. It also allows T to decide which property(product) to rent before committing to the Contract, as per any other Consumer.

                      I fear your career as a Judge could be short.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by mariner View Post
                        What's the Italian's got to do with it?
                        Annual GSC is a Stat Req for Gas Safety. EPC is to improve min thermal (en ergy) levels. It also allows T to decide which property(product) to rent before committing to the Contract, as per any other Consumer.

                        I fear your career as a Judge could be short.
                        Thanks for your help

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Unlikely that your version of 'common sense' will prevail in any court case in my view.

                          By the way, if your tenants took possession on 28 Feb then that's when their tenancy began. If your agreement to let them move-in early was documented anywhere, (eg an email), then they may try to use the confusion over start date of the tenancy to their advantage in any court hearing.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by mariner View Post
                            What's the Italian's got to do with it?
                            Annual GSC is a Stat Req for Gas Safety. EPC is to improve min thermal (en ergy) levels. It also allows T to decide which property(product) to rent before committing to the Contract, as per any other Consumer.

                            I fear your career as a Judge could be short.
                            Oh please how primitive are you

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by blinko View Post
                              Oh please how primitive are you
                              Please could you explain that comment, as currently I am with mariner.

                              Comment

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