Sec 21 Can landlord withdraw

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by KTC View Post
    They're not actually entitled to that unless a court awards it, and in this position I would argue that their going to court was premature and needlessly incurred if the tenant informed the landlord of a leaving date 2 weeks after the end of the s21 and the landlord said no.
    I would probably make the same argument as a defence.

    The real cost to the landlord is likely to be an increased premium for making a claim on his insurers legal service for no point.

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  • KTC
    replied
    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
    The cost of the case to that point is £308 (I think it's still that) and you would probably owe the landlord that if he wanted to collect it (as it's an unexpected loss).
    They're not actually entitled to that unless a court awards it, and in this position I would argue that their going to court was premature and needlessly incurred if the tenant informed the landlord of a leaving date 2 weeks after the end of the s21 and the landlord said no.

    I think that I would either give a month's notice on the 28th and move out after a fortnight, making sure to return the keys and confirm that you have ended the tenancy in writing.
    I would make sure the notice to quit have a saving clause in it as well just in case the landlord refuse to accept the surrender or short notice, to make sure that the tenancy would end definitively ASAP whatever happens.

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    Originally posted by Ellie39 View Post
    so when I leave if the landlord attends the property and takes control that is the point at which I’m no longer liable for rent.
    There are two separate areas of law that operate.

    The property law position is that the liability for rent ends when the tenancy does.
    The landlord recovering possession would end the tenancy - although it's always difficult to know when exactly that happens (because you're not there and the landlord can claim not to have recovered the property).

    The contractual position is that rent is due until the contract has ended.
    Without notice, it's hard to determine when that is (although logically it would end when the tenancy it regulates does - law and logic aren't the same thing).

    By not serving the correct notice, you are in breach of contract and the landlord can claim the unpaid rent as a loss.
    The landlord has served notice which should end the contract, but it can't (because of property law).

    It's nowhere near as black and white as it should be.
    And, if it ever came to court, who knows what the judge would actually decide.

    Hence my suggestion to do what is actually necessary and not what is technically required by the law.
    It has it's risks, but the worst possible outcome doesn't seem that much worse than doing what you're meant to.

    I'm sure others would disagree.

    If the rent that is being paid is a lot, it might be worth talking to a solicitor.
    Most of them will meet for free for a 10 minute chat about your position so that they can quote for anything they might be able to do to help.

    It's quite possible that a sternly reading letter on a legal letterhead might put the landlord back in their box.
    And that might cost much less than the rent.


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  • Ellie39
    replied
    Thanks for the advice, so when I leave if the landlord attends the property and takes control that is the point at which I’m no longer liable for rent.
    Thanks

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  • leaseholder64
    replied
    Note that what it says in the tenancy about notice periods during an SPT can be ignored, as the legislation that creates SPTs says that the wording in the legislation overrides anything in the tenancy agreement.

    I think most landlords issuing section 21 would accept a surrender rather than requiring notice ending at the end of a rental period. Generally if they issue section 21 without informally trying to negotiate a surrender first, they want the tenant out sooner, rather than later.

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  • jpkeates
    replied
    The landlord can't "sue you" if you don't leave on the 27th.
    They have nothing to sue you for.

    They can start legal action to repossess their property and they may have insurance that will pay for that.
    If they do do that, it will take weeks/months for the issue to come to court, by which time it will be academic, because you will have returned the property to the owner before the hearing commences.
    The cost of the case to that point is £308 (I think it's still that) and you would probably owe the landlord that if he wanted to collect it (as it's an unexpected loss).

    While the advice being given is correct, I think that I would either give a month's notice on the 28th and move out after a fortnight, making sure to return the keys and confirm that you have ended the tenancy in writing.

    While none of that will actually bring the tenancy to an end, it forces the landlord to make a decision.
    He's asked you to move out and you have done.

    Technically, you will owe rent on the property until the landlord takes control of it - which they're pretty much bound to do.

    As a precaution, I'd pay for a royal mail divert for any mail addressed to you to the current property address.
    If the landlord sues you for anything, you'll want to know about it (because you can lose by default if you don't know what's happening).

    This is what I would do, but it isn't good advice and does put you at risk of being sued for rent you should have paid.

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  • Ellie39
    replied
    So I’m stuck , can’t move out for two months , can give one months notice and hope he doesn't now , but the landlords going to start legal action against me as they have told me they have an insurance even if he won’t accept a moving out date before the two months notice expires.
    Any suggestions
    The obvious answer negotiate with landlord , however I suspect he is getting off on this.

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  • KTC
    replied
    You can't legally give valid notice the first day of a statutory periodic tenancy, i.e. 28th August. By 29th August, the earliest valid notice you can give would be ending the SPT on 27th October.

    Your landlord may not know or care.

    Are the s21 notice even valid? Double check. If not, their threat is meaningless.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ellie39
    replied
    Hi
    Update and a question
    I found a property and as suspected couldn’t quiet get out in time. The landlords sec 21 said I had to leave after 2 months the 27th Aug, The rent being due each 28th first day of the tenancy each month.
    Asked if I could leave two weeks later obviously pay until then when the new property was available and was rudely told to get out on the 27th or else I would be sued, and liable for the costs.
    The tenancy becomes periodic When the notice expires mid the 27th Aug. Im going to give a months notice so I have written my notice one month from then so I leave the property on the 27th sept. Before next months oct is due.
    Am I correct to give one months notice bearing in mind the break clause above. I’m effectively giving a months notice to coincide with the first month we revert to periodic, in the first day the Sec 21 expires. Or can it be argued I should give two.
    Also the Break clause above says I should give one Periods notice, is a period a month.
    Tia

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  • MdeB
    replied
    Originally posted by Ellie39 View Post
    I would like to leave , but this is dependent upon me finding another suitable property,
    As stated above, once a break clause has been properly invoked by the LL and the notice period has expired, you are on a SPT.
    You then need to give at least one month's notice to quit, ending on the last (or first) day of a rental period (that is the period for which rent is due, which is not necessarily related to the rent-payment date), OR get the agreement of the LL to end the tenancy earlier (i.e. LL agrees to accept your notice to quit that ends on a different day).
    The tenancy ends when your notice expires (either at the end of the last day of a rental period, or at the end of the agreed day).
    You are then required to pay the rent until the tenancy ends.

    Originally posted by Ellie39 View Post
    this means I have to ... pay ... probably any other deductions the landlord can think of.
    If you disagree that deduction are reasonable, then challenge them through the deposit scheme.

    Originally posted by Ellie39 View Post
    If a suitable property comes up I will need to sign up ASAP or loose it
    For which you are likely going to have to pay rent for two properties at the same time.


    If you want to stay, then your only option is to show that the the break clause was not properly invoked by the LL.
    Options appear to be:
    1. not served correctly;
    2. end date not 27th of the month;
    3. less than 2 months notice given;
    4. argue that S21 notice does not invoke the break clause (not sure of chances of success with this one).

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  • Ellie39
    replied
    I would like to leave , but this is dependent upon me finding another suitable property, this means I have to find a deposit pay checkout fees and probably any other deductions the landlord can think of. And moving costs. EST around £3k
    Problem is there is very little to rent in the area I’m in. If a suitable property comes up I will need to sign up ASAP or loose it landlords in my area simply won’t wait one or two months.
    As I say I would like to move but the reality is unless the landlord is very flexible about notice period accepting a week of two I’m going to have to stay and fight this.

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  • MdeB
    replied
    What is your desired outcome?
    1. staying in the property.
    2. getting out when the S21 notice expires
    3. getting out later
    4. something else

    Leave a comment:


  • Ellie39
    replied
    Thanks , I suspected it wasn’t written properly. We had signed the tenancy agreement as far as we knew everything was ok, it was a very short notice move. We went to the agent to collect keys after signing was told the landlord had signed we actually went in the removal van. When we got there it was supposed to be a three year deal the agent said they had changed the agreement introducing a break clause and either sign or forget it. They new we had no choice, but I suspected it was basically a cut and past clause from google.
    Had the landlord used the break clause I was going to argue it as being unfair the way they changed it, but if it’s that bad I will get advice on whether it’s fair and enforceable.

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  • leaseholder64
    replied
    This is beginning to look like a homework exercise, as there seem to be lots of special cases involved. Either that or the landlord has been trying to be creative beyond their level of knowledge. There are void clauses. There seems to be a confusion between different types of notice. There is a a clause that looks like it might be considered unfair.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ellie39
    replied
    So from the below assuming I’m not going to contest the break clause , I’m now on a periodic tenancy as the fixed period has been terminated and after the sec21 date I have to give one months notice but the landlord has to give two ?





    31.1. If at the end of the fixed Term the Tenancy continues as a statutory periodic shorthold tenancy the Landlord and Tenant agree that the Landlord can end the Tenancy by giving the Tenant a minimum of two months’ notice by serving a Section 21 Notice which must expire at the end of a period of the Tenancy being the day before the Rent is due; and the Tenant may end the Tenancy by giving the Landlord a minimum of one period’s notice in writing to be served to the address for service shown at clause 1.1. The notice must expire at the end of a period of the Tenancy being the day before the Rent is due.

    Landlord’s Break Clause

    32.1 The Tenant agrees that the Landlord has the right to terminate the Tenancy after the first 12 months by giving the Tenant not less than 2 months prior notice in writing to end the Agreement to be served by first class post or hand delivery to the Tenant at the address of the Premises. The notice must be served prior to the date upon which it takes effect. Such notice must expire at the end of a relevant period, being the 27th day of the month. When the notice period expires the Agreement shall cease. This does not affect the right of either the Landlord or the Tenant to pursue their legal remedies against the other for any existing breach of any rights under the Agreement.

    Tenant’s Break Clause

    33.1 The Landlord agrees that the Tenant has the right to terminate the Tenancy on or after the first 12 months by giving the Landlord not less than 2 months prior notice in writing to be served by first class post or hand delivery to the address specified in clause 1.1 of the Agreement, to end the Tenancy. The notice must be served prior to the date upon which it takes effect. Such notice must expire at the end of a relevant period, being the 27th day of the month. When the notice period expires, the Agreement shall cease. This does not affect the right of either the Landlord or the Tenant to pursue their legal remedies against the other for any existing breach of any rights under the Agreement.

    Leave a comment:

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