No PI for original or renewal AST.

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    No PI for original or renewal AST.

    We didn't receive PI for our last property and are looking into taking the LL to court for it.
    we didn't receive any for the original AST or the renewal.

    The deposit was £2630 and we are still waiting for DPS to finish adjudicating on it, but expect to get it back as the LL didn't do their evidence properly or point to any specific problems.

    I don't know how to claim for it though, so here are my questions:

    Would they be fined for both of the tenancies or just once?
    How do I know which amount to pay for costs if I don't know how much of a penalty the courts might award?
    Does it have to be through the county court? I can't just use MCOL, can I?

    Sorry - the whole courts thing confuses me.

    Thanks for reading.

    ​​​​​​


    #2
    The deposit was how much?

    I don't know how to claim for it though, so here are my questions:
    https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...55#post1009255

    Would they be fined for both of the tenancies or just once?
    There's no binding authority on the matter, but it is generally believed that liability is per tenancy, though of course the defense will try to argue otherwise.

    How do I know which amount to pay for costs if I don't know how much of a penalty the courts might award?
    £308 "non-money claims" in the county court.

    It's not a moneyclaim, don't let an admin staff at the court tell you otherwise if they try.

    Does it have to be through the county court? I can't just use MCOL, can I?
    MCOL is county court.... But if what you're asking is whether you can do it via a moneyclaim, the proper answer is no. People try, some get away with it, others don't. Your money (the issue fee), up to you.

    Sorry - the whole courts thing confuses me.
    Then instruct a solicitor to make the claim for you instead of trying to DIY it yourself.
    I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

    I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

    Comment


      #3
      If the landlord doesn't owe you any of the deposit, you can't use MCOL, because there's no debt to claim.
      MCOL isn't meant to get involved in deposit penalties, but they do seem to if the issue arises from a small claim relating to a deposit.

      Otherwise, you need to make a Part 8 claim, which has a standard (and quite high) fee - so it isn't going to vary (county court £308, High Court £528).
      Part 8 claims are quite fiddly, it's designed to be used by solicitors rather than people (if you see what I mean), so you might need some help with the basic process.
      Lots of part 8 claims fail for process and admin reasons, rather than because the claim isn't valid.

      You might find that solicitors are less willing to take on cases relating to PI only on a no win no fee basis.

      To answer your question about how many claims, it depends when the tenancies began.
      The law has changed recently, so that it would now be one claim, so it depends when the renewal happy.

      You might find that the landlord would respond to a "without prejudice" letter (once everything is sorted with the dispute) pointing out the breach and threatening legal action if they don't pay (say) £2360, rather than risk the penalty being more than one times and inclusive of serious legal fees.

      Overlapped with KTC.
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #4
        People have suggested that the courts will only award one times, if the only issue is failure to provide PI.

        Comment


          #5
          KTC,

          Thank you.

          Yep, £2630! Rent was £1900pcm.

          I need to also claim for the cost of our belongings that they threw away after preventing us from fulfilling our end of tenancy obligations whilst we still had possession. Should I do that separately to make it less complicated or add it with the non-money claim?


          I've tried with some no-win, no-fee places but it's a bit tricky because some don't want to deal with PI.
          I can't afford a solicitor and we aren't eligible for any legal help.

          Comment


            #6
            jpkeates,

            Thanks. I'll be waiting until DPS has finished with adjudication anyway, so will go from there with if they do or don't allow any deductions. Plus I need the deposit money to pay towards court costs.

            Original tenancy was 01/06/17 and renewal was 01/06/18. How would that affect the law on it?

            Once we noticed we hadn't been given PI, I notified the LL in August '18 and requested it back, knowing they intended on serving a S21. They refused to return the deposit - that can't bode well for them, can it? Not attempting to remedy it and that?

            Comment


              #7
              leaseholder64,

              They also refused to try and remedy after I noticed and notified them, knowing they intended on serving a S21. That makes it more serious doesn't it?

              Comment


                #8
                You were not put at any real additional disadvantage.

                We seem to either be getting this story in dribs and drabs, or this is really a continuation of a previous thread.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by themysciramama View Post
                  Original tenancy was 01/06/17 and renewal was 01/06/18. How would that affect the law on it?

                  Once we noticed we hadn't been given PI, I notified the LL in August '18 and requested it back, knowing they intended on serving a S21. They refused to return the deposit - that can't bode well for them, can it? Not attempting to remedy it and that?
                  In which case I think it's two failures to issue the PI.
                  Because the landlord didn't do it the first time, the replacement tenancy also had a failure.

                  And yes, failing to issue it when you asked for it should make it worse.

                  Judges are unpredictable, though.
                  It's always better to resolve the issue without actually going to court.

                  When you send your letter to the landlord, it's always worth while suggesting that they take legal action in case they don't understand the problem that they have.

                  It's a breach of s213(6) of the Housing Act 2004, if you want to sound like you've taken advice yourself.
                  When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                  Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                  Comment


                    #10
                    jpkeates,

                    Thanks a lot.
                    i had used that info when I notified them before with a template from Shelter, but wasn't in a position then to take them to court. The chance has been there for them to redeem themselves, though.

                    I'm glad I can just do a non-money claim though, so we don't have to take a gamble at how much the might be told to pay.

                    Thanks for your help!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                      When you send your letter to the landlord, it's always worth while suggesting that they take legal action in case they don't understand the problem that they have.
                      In case you were wondering themysciramama, that's suggest to your landlord that they take legal advice, not legal action.
                      I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                      I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by themysciramama View Post
                        I'm glad I can just do a non-money claim though, so we don't have to take a gamble at how much the might be told to pay.
                        Yes, don't actually say "this is exactly how much I'm claiming" so the other side can't argue you didn't win most or all you claimed for so they get some cost or at least cost neutral. So something along the line of:
                        1. There was an AST 01/06/17 to 31/05/18.
                        2. A deposit was paid on X/Y/Z for said tenancy.
                        3. There was a second AST 01/06/18 to X/Y/Z.
                        4. Deposit deemed received again by landlord: see Superstrike v Rodrigues [2013] EWCA Civ 669.
                        5. Landlord didn't serve PI despite us realising and telling them August 2018. Never served at any point.
                        6. Seek an order pursuant to s214(4) of the Housing Act 2004 for a sum of money amounting to not less than £2,630 and not more than £7,890 in respect of each tenancies.
                        7. Claim interest & cost.

                        Originally posted by themysciramama View Post
                        They also refused to try and remedy after I noticed and notified them, knowing they intended on serving a S21. That makes it more serious doesn't it?
                        Yes, include that detail in any claim.

                        You're not going to get 3x, since deposit was actually protected, but arugments along the line of "landlord knew better having been warned" etc. if judge ask you what amount you think fair may get you 2x. Could even 1x for first and 2x for second.

                        If you're really going for it, do honestly try to settle with landlord. Make appropriately targetted "without prejudice save as to costs" offers.
                        I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                        I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by themysciramama View Post
                          I need to also claim for the cost of our belongings that they threw away after preventing us from fulfilling our end of tenancy obligations whilst we still had possession. Should I do that separately to make it less complicated or add it with the non-money claim?
                          Either is fine.
                          I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                          I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            KTC,

                            Thanks so much! That's all so helpful!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              DPS only adjudge on return of orig deposit, not the Penalty, for which you should use Part 8 route of CC.
                              Judge decides on level of Penalty, he may award tou nothing, more likely 1x deposit.

                              Comment

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