Ending a company let during the fixed term

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    #31
    If the T doesn't pass on the deposits to me (most likely won't), and I wasn't the one who received the deposits - then how can I be legally responsible to return it to them? What law is this from?

    Surely, their case is against the T, to whom they gave their deposits?

    Have I got this completely wrong?

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by twostepsbehind View Post
      Have I got this completely wrong?
      Yes, you have.
      If the lease with the company is terminated with the occupants in place as tenants, you become their landlord and acquire all of the landlord's liabilities and rights (the relevant law is the Housing Act 1988 - particularly section 19).
      So the tenants have to pay their rent to you and you have to protect and return their deposits - for example.

      As the building is an HMO you will also acquire the responsibilities of the manager of an HMO which are quite onerous (assuming the company hasn't met them alread).

      As you aren't the landlord now, it will be difficult to ensure that you are in a position to serve valid notice to the tenants.
      Your best option would be to negotiate a settlement with the company who are your tenant so that, in exchange for them ending their tenancies with the property occupants and returning the property to you vacant, you will compensate them for the interuption to their business.
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by twostepsbehind View Post
        If the T doesn't pass on the deposits to me (most likely won't), and I wasn't the one who received the deposits - then how can I be legally responsible to return it to them? What law is this from?

        Surely, their case is against the T, to whom they gave their deposits?

        Have I got this completely wrong?
        No offence but you are the one who decided to buy this situation... (Was this "sourced" for you??)

        Due to s.3 Landlord and Tenant (Covenants) Act 1995, in law the new landlord takes on the benefits and liabilities of the old landlord: including all to do with deposit. Regardless of them paying you deposit or not. You cannot change that. So, for example, if you wished to avoid being sued for up-to-3x-deposit penalty for non-protection and/or to ensure any s21 was valid YOU would need to protect the deposit you maybe never had (eg pay into scheme) and return it to tenants when they depart.

        NB The occupants DO have the right also to sue current landlord if they've failed to do things right (£5 says they did screw up..)

        NNB IF you ever succeed in ending company tenancy (unless company agree that would require courts) you best bet might be to offer occupants new ASTs at lower rent: (Bear with me here..). They will likely sign, you get to set everything up correctly and get paperwork right - and you have the paperwork - and can then evict, s21, 6 months later. Otherwise, who knows what you find or what paperwork there is or isn't.

        What training in such rent-2-rent schemes and other landlord/tenant matters have you done, please?
        I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

        Comment


          #34
          Hi,

          So can I chase the LTD company through the courts for the missing deposits?

          Also, is offering cash to subtenants as an incentive to leave allowed/legal?

          Thanks

          Comment


            #35
            The deposits are the property of the occupants in the control of your tenant, the company.
            I don't know on what basis you could try and recover the money from them - it's not yours to claim.

            It's probably legal to offer the occupants money to leave, but they're not in any business relationship with you, they're the company's customers.
            So they might be a little upset to have you interfering with their business and you might be trying to get the tenant to break a contract they have with the company.

            You want them on your side, not working against you.
            You should be dealing with the company - if you are prepared to pay something to move this forward, you might consider doing a deal with the company.
            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

            Comment


              #36
              Hi,

              Well if the LTD company doesn't hand over the deposits of the subtenants at the end of their (LTD company's) tenancy, then surely I have a claim against them?

              Comment


                #37
                You may well do, and are at liberty to take legal action against them AFTER tenancy ends(...if they still exist...). But.....
                a) You will anyway be responsible for those deposits anyway.
                b) HOW are you planning on ending the tenancy? Just because it reaches the end date doesn't mean tenancy has ended: Almost certainly you'll need court action and ...
                c) I suggest you have much bigger fish to fry than worrying about deposit. Start negotiating with T, the company, or start court action.

                But, hey, free country...

                Do let us know when something substantial happens, please.
                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                Comment


                  #38
                  If it's a commercial lease, then court action isn't required?

                  (If it is indeed a commercial lease and I believe it is)

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Hey, you put this in the residential letting sub-forum. But I think yes, it is a commercial lease, but of residential property.

                    What, if anything, EXACTLY does the tenancy agreement say about landlord and/or tenant ending the tenancy, please?
                    I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by twostepsbehind View Post
                      Well if the LTD company doesn't hand over the deposits of the subtenants at the end of their (LTD company's) tenancy, then surely I have a claim against them?
                      The company has taken deposits (the tenant's money) and is looking after it.
                      You have no contract or connection with the company.
                      When your agreement with the company ends, the occupants become your tenants and you are their landlord and liable for the tenant's deposits.

                      But, at no point have you made any arrangements to have the tenant's deposits transferred to you, so what would your claim be?
                      Will the court please make that company give me money which belongs to someone else to look after?

                      At some point in the future, when you have to return the tenant's deposits, so you will probably suffer a loss that arose from your business with the company.
                      Then you might have a claim for that loss, but not until then.

                      You can't sue for a possible future loss.

                      What you need to do is negotiate a solution acceptable to the company, the occupants and you. You can't just start trying to end agreements, pay people to leave or evict people.
                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                        What, if anything, EXACTLY does the tenancy agreement say about landlord and/or tenant ending the tenancy, please?
                        ^^^^^^^^^^
                        I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                        I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          I repeat
                          What, if anything, EXACTLY does the tenancy agreement say about landlord and/or tenant ending the tenancy, please?
                          - in particular the EXACT wording of BOTH break clauses (that for tenant-the company- & that for landlord- you)

                          In your shoes I would start court proceedings to end the tenancy between you & company as illegal eviction is a criminal offence that landlords can & have gone to jail for.
                          I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                          Comment


                            #43
                            You can't illegally evict the company as they are not an occupant.

                            I would take some professional legal advice.
                            If your notice is valid, it ends the tenancy and you can simply serve notice to the occupants that you are their landlord (this has to have specific contents, so, again legal advice is helpful).
                            If it isn't valid, it doesn't end the tenancy - and you need to be certain you've got it right.

                            If you serve notice to the occupants and they start to pay you rent and the notice wasn't valid, you could be sued by the company.

                            At the same time, suggest that the company takes legal advice if they don't accept that you can end the lease - they're not going to take your word for it, so they need a second opinion.
                            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                            Comment


                              #44
                              It's a notice under Section 48 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 and probably Section 3 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985.

                              Almost any solicitor in a town or city will do this kind of stuff pretty routinely.
                              When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                              Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by twostepsbehind
                                There is a break clause and a break notice has been served, but they don’t accept the lease can end like this.

                                The Ltd company doesn’t occupy the property.

                                The sub tenants become my tenants automatically after the break date.

                                Surely I don’t need a court order - is the ball in their court to start proceedings if they want to challenge the break

                                Is it as simple as the Ltd comp simply not a part of the equation once their lease ends?

                                Thanks all for your great help so far!
                                Ummnnn not sure, I am not a lawyer but over on gov.uk
                                https://www.gov.uk/terminating-a-com...ty-lease-early
                                Break clause


                                This is an official date in the lease, agreed by the landlord and tenant, where the lease can be ‘broken’ without anyone facing a penalty. As a tenant, you need to give your landlord 2 months notice that you are using the break clause. As a landlord, you can only use it if your tenant agrees.
                                You might get a more qualified response to your query over at
                                https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...erty-questions

                                - but, once the tenancy with the company has been ended (I'm not convinced it has been, particularly given gov.uk comments) then I agree with jpkeats' suggestions of serving s48 & s3 notice(s), I'd also refer to s18 of HA 1988 which is how you become landlord when the occupants' landlord's tenancy end (ending the superior tenancy)- see
                                http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/18

                                May I also humbly repeat...
                                What, if anything, EXACTLY does the tenancy agreement say about landlord and/or tenant ending the tenancy, please?


                                - in particular the EXACT wording of BOTH break clauses (that for tenant-the company- & that for landlord- you)
                                (It's quite easy to get the wording of break clauses wrong...)

                                Not trying to be too gloomy but if & when you succeed in ending tenancy with company, as presumably you might not have all the paperwork concerned with the occupant's tenancy you might find s21 is invalid or you can't prove it's valid...

                                Let us know how things progress.
                                I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                                Comment

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