Has my term ended (Does a special condition override?)?

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    Has my term ended (Does a special condition override?)?

    Hi
    I was about to give the our 1 month notice to the lettings agents today, and was told that we have to give 2 months rather than 1, even though we are on a rolling periodic contract.
    I was told "Yes you are currently on a periodic tenancy still bound to the same terms and conditions of your AST."
    Within the contract its says under special conditions section "Either party can terminate this agreement by way of using this 'break clause'. Either party can give two months notice in writing confirming that they wish to end the tenancy. This 'break clause' can only be used after the first four months of this agreement has elapsed."
    The only thing mentioned about the term of the contract is "Term: For the term of One Year Less A Day commencing on 17 March 2017"

    So does the special conditions section take precedent over the Term bit?

    Q1 – Where is the rented property located (England / Wales / Scotland / N Ireland)?
    England
    Q2 – What type of Tenancy Agreement (TA) is this e.g. sole tenant / multiple tenant / room only?
    Sole Tenant
    Q3 – What date did current TA start dd/mm/yy?
    17/03/2017
    Q4 – How long was initial fixed term (6/12/24 months / other)?

    For the term of One Year Less A Day commencing on 17 March 2017
    Q5 – Does the TA state that rent is due weekly? / 4-weekly? / per calendar month (if so, on what same date each month)?
    Monthly
    Q6 – Did the TA require a tenant damage deposit to be paid? If so, on what date was this paid (dd/mm/yy)?
    Yes, A deposit is payable on signing this Agreement (17/03/2017)
    Q7 – If your query relates to a notice for repossession from the landlord (a Section 8 or Section 21 notice) or a tenants's notice to quit to the landlord, please provide the exact date the notice was sent/received (dd/mm/yy).
    n/a
    Q8 – Does the landlord live in the same property as the tenant?

    No


    thanks
    Last edited by 1qwertyuiop; 12-09-2018, 21:48 PM. Reason: change of title

    #2
    For the term of One Year Less A Day commencing on 17 March 2017
    (Why, just why? )

    The required notice is a common law notice to quit, in writing, at least one complete period of tenancy, at least 28 days, with a specified end date of either the last day or the first day of a period of tenancy. The tenancy ends at the end of the day midnight, the last day of the period.

    Q5 – Does the TA state that rent is due weekly? / 4-weekly? / per calendar month (if so, on what same date each month)?
    Monthly
    The period is monthly.

    I think the fixed term ended on 15 March 2018, so period is 16th - 15th following month.

    That should mean you can give a notice to quit with an expiry date of 16 October 2018 on it. I would go with 16 October rather than 15 just in case that fixed term somehow actually ended on 16 March 2018. This way, the notice to quit would be valid either way.

    The bigger problem you may have is how service of notice is effected in accordance with your tenancy agreement. If it says you have to post it and it's then deemed served (say) two working days after posting, you've missed the boat with the weekend coming up. If you can serve it in person by handing it over, then do so by the end of the week during office hour and you're fine. You may want to take a witness with you, or if you can get them to sign a copy of the notice to prove you served it.
    I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

    I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks for that, they have said I can email it. What if I email it with the 16th October but they refuse to accept it ?

      Also they keep going on about the special condition as the break clause, and 2 month notice Is the special condition relevant after the term has ended?

      Comment


        #4
        It doesn't matter what they say, simply quote The Housing Act 1988 50,5(3)(e) which says:

        "under which, subject to the following provisions of this Part of this Act, the other terms are the same as those of the fixed term tenancy immediately before it came to an end, except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy."

        This essentially says that they can't make requirements in the TA that override statute on notice, provided you became a Statutory Periodic Tenancy rather than a Contractual Periodic Tenancy (and the latter are almost unheard of and difficult to create, only a judge can decide)

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks,

          i was reading up on it, and found this https://www.pims.co.uk/periodic-tenancies/ , which says

          "When the fixed term of an Assured or Assured Shorthold Tenancy comes to an end but the Tenant stays, a periodic tenancy automatically follows the fixed-term if the parties do nothing (i.e. they do not sign another agreement) and the tenancy will be on the same basis as the original agreement, with all the same clauses and conditions being operative. The period of the tenancy will depend upon the rent payment schedule: if the rent was paid monthly under the original fixed term, this will become a monthly periodic tenancy, or a weekly periodic tenancy if this was the payment schedule. In the case of a periodic tenancy"

          Would that not apply in my case? I just want to be iron clad when i go back to them today.

          Comment


            #6
            I'd guess the rest of the piece (which is members only) clarifies the situation.

            Davett is quite right, any notice in the contract is replaced by new notice terms which are imposed by the legislation.
            So the terms are all the same except the notice required.
            The same law that creates the periodic tenancy creates the new notice period.

            The agent should really know that - I'd suggest pointing them at wherever they go for legal advice rather than trying to argue the toss.
            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

            Comment


              #7
              As above, per section 5(3) of the Housing Act 1988 as amended, the periodic tenancy you are now on has the same terms as the preceeding fixed term "except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy".

              Originally posted by 1qwertyuiop View Post
              Thanks for that, they have said I can email it. What if I email it with the 16th October but they refuse to accept it ?
              Forget what they said for a moment. Go through your tenancy agreement, what if any does it say how notice may be given by the tenant to the landlord?
              I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

              I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by KTC View Post
                As above, per section 5(3) of the Housing Act 1988 as amended, the periodic tenancy you are now on has the same terms as the preceeding fixed term "except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy".



                Forget what they said for a moment. Go through your tenancy agreement, what if any does it say how notice may be given by the tenant to the landlord?
                The only bit mentioned regarding serving notice is

                Section 196 of the Law and Property Act 1925 provides that a notice shall be sufficiently served if sent by registered or recorded delivery post (if the letter is not returned undelivered) to the Tenant at the Property or the last known address of the Tenant or left addressed to the Tenant at the Property.

                I can go direct to them as they are not far from me, but it iwll be Friday afternoon.

                If I was to go to them, with the end notice of 16th Oct, could they refuse it point blank?

                (what a faff)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by 1qwertyuiop View Post
                  The only bit mentioned regarding serving notice is

                  ...

                  I can go direct to them as they are not far from me, but it iwll be Friday afternoon.

                  If I was to go to them, with the end notice of 16th Oct, could they refuse it point blank?
                  I assume there's a sentence before that that goes along the line of section 196 of the Law and Property Act 1925 applies to this tenancy, and it didn't just suddenly explain what some random section of some legislation says? The bit you quoted also trying to say how the landlord may serve notice to you the tenant, not the other way round.

                  Does it say anywhere that the address for service to the landlord is the agent's address?

                  If so, pop it in an envelope, go to their office with a friend, and hand it to their receptionist or something.
                  I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                  I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    An agent or landlord is at liberty to refuse or decide invalid any notice, however served, even if anyone else would think it ok & valid.

                    However they don't decide. They are then at liberty to sue for unpaid rent and a judge/deposit-scheme-adjudicator will rule.
                    I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by KTC View Post

                      I assume there's a sentence before that that goes along the line of section 196 of the Law and Property Act 1925 applies to this tenancy, and it didn't just suddenly explain what some random section of some legislation says? The bit you quoted also trying to say how the landlord may serve notice to you the tenant, not the other way round.
                      Nope, no mention of that

                      Originally posted by KTC View Post
                      Does it say anywhere that the address for service to the landlord is the agent's address?

                      If so, pop it in an envelope, go to their office with a friend, and hand it to their receptionist or something.
                      Landlord address is the lettings agents address in the contract.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Pop round with a friend and hand it over before 4:30pm.
                        I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                        I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The reference to s196 seems to be only informative, although it tends to confirm that there is an intent that the whole section applies. The full wording of that section also applies the same service methods to the lessor (landlord).

                          s196 also allows notices to be left at the last known place of business, so posting isn't necessary.

                          s196 also allows notices to the tenant to be affixed to the property, but there is no equivalent option for notices to landlords.

                          https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...20/section/196

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by leaseholder64 View Post
                            The reference to s196 seems to be only informative[/url]
                            I find that many entities put vaguely relevant references to legislation (or patents applied for etc) to add gravitas to their otherwise unenforceable requirements to intimidate the uninformed

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                              An agent or landlord is at liberty to refuse or decide invalid any notice, however served, even if anyone else would think it ok & valid.

                              However they don't decide. They are then at liberty to sue for unpaid rent and a judge/deposit-scheme-adjudicator will rule.
                              I may be having a bad day, but that seems to me to be devoid of meaning.

                              Comment

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