Permitted occupier question

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by Rewolf View Post
    If you accept a second adult w/o any form of referencing them and don't put them on the AST as a PO they could easily say you verbally agreed they could live there as a non paying tenant, which to some degree would be true, then up-to the LL to prove otherwise.​​​​​
    Doesn't work that way....
    I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

    I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

    Comment


      #17
      Non-Paying Tenant?

      No such thing.
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
        Non-Paying Tenant?

        No such thing.
        However, I would add a clause stating that "any rent or other monies paid by anyone other than the named tenant shall be deemed to have been paid in the capacity of an agent for the named tenant", to avoid someone making a payment and then claiming a tenancy.

        Comment


          #19
          What insurance companies and lenders insist on does not affect the legal position. I wonder why they insist in any event.

          Statute does of course override any agreement, but I cannot see the need to introduce clauses to cover the right to rent as the time for the landlord to be proactive is before granting the tenancy.

          Some comments raise the question of whether it is wise to insert unnecessary and/or unenforceable provisions in tenancy agreements. On the whole it is not.

          The only benefit in introducing unnecessary clauses is that it prevents the tenant arguing he "never agreed that" when "that" is the law. If you are going to do it then you need to get the wording right.

          The clause proposed in post 18 is quite unnecessary. The starting point is section 52 LPA 1925 which provides that, subject to exceptions, a legal estate can only be transferred by deed. Payment of rent by a third party is not an exception listed in the Act. Mention may though be made of assignment by estoppel, but that will only happen if the third party represents himself as tenant and the landlord accepts the representation. Note that the clause will be of no avail if the landlord by his actions accepts the representation. If you want to head off any possibilty of a third party becoming a tenant, the best way to deal the matter is to send to the third party in writing an acknowledgement of the payment saying: "Thank you for paying the rent on behalf of the tenant X."

          Unenforceable clauses are not recommended because if you get to court they do not create a good impression. It is a bad idea for agents to include them as they may give the landlord the impression that they are enforceable; if the landlord sues on an unenforcebale clauses and loses he has a claim against the draftsman.

          Comment


            #20
            Do the Occupiers' Liability Act 1957 & 1984 have implications?
            I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
              Do the Occupiers' Liability Act 1957 & 1984 have implications?
              Pass. Haven't read them for a while.

              My points above come under L&T law. Other laws do of course come into play. My basic point is that limiting occupation to the tenant is in most case likely to be unenforceable.

              Comment


                #22
                Why else is there a legal enitity known as 'the Tenant'?
                Quote the source text for your assertion.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by mariner View Post
                  Why else is there a legal enitity known as 'the Tenant'?
                  Not sure I understand the question.

                  A tenant is not in fact a legal entity. "Tenant", like "purchaser", "supplier", "manufacturer", "father" and "neighbour", is no more than a label. A legal entiity is something like a natural person, company or other corporation, firm or co-operative.

                  Originally posted by mariner View Post
                  Quote the source text for your assertion.
                  As I said above, I cannot quote a direct authority. I can though quote Lord Denning:

                  “If one man agrees to confer a particular benefit on another, he must not do anything which substantially deprives the other of the enjoyment of that benefit, because that would be to take away with one hand what is given with the other.”

                  If A proposes to let to B a three bed house it has to be assumed that it is in the contemplation of both A and B that B will want to make full use of it by having all three bedrooms occupied. If A insists that two of the bedrooms cannot be occupied without his consent he is taking away with one hand what he has given with the other.

                  Requiring all occupants to be named or approved is a recent development. Its main purpose is to allow agents to charge a fee for vetting occupants.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                    Requiring all occupants to be named or approved is a recent development. Its main purpose is to allow agents to charge a fee for vetting occupants.
                    Now we're part of the home office immigration team, it's a bit more complex than that.
                    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Even under Right to Rent, there's nothing to say that the occupier have to be explicitly permitted in the tenancy agreement. The landlord merely have to make "reasonable enquiries" for any adult that is not named. So a 3 bed house, yes, you may want to ask who the tenant's planning to have in the rooms. But a one bed double moving their bf/gf in, none of your business.
                      I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                      I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                        The clause proposed in post 18 is quite unnecessary.
                        Can you direct me to any statute or judgement that says that accepting rent from an occupier does not create a tenancy with them?

                        I was under the impression (but nothing to back it up) that accepting rent from an occupier could create a tenancy.

                        Or is it because a tenancy already exists with the agreed tenant that no new tenancy can be created?

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Shelter legal on rent payment say
                          http://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/...ayment_of_rent
                          Rent must be paid by the tenant to the landlord or her/his agent. Rent paid by the tenant's husband, wife or civil partner is to be treated as if paid by the tenant.[3] Payment by someone else on behalf of the tenant must be authorised or subsequently ratified by her/him.
                          I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by MdeB View Post
                            Can you direct me to any statute or judgement that says that accepting rent from an occupier does not create a tenancy with them?
                            Lankester & Son Ltd v Rennie https://www.casemine.com/judgement/u...94e0775e7ee850

                            Originally posted by MdeB View Post
                            I was under the impression (but nothing to back it up) that accepting rent from an occupier could create a tenancy.

                            Or is it because a tenancy already exists with the agreed tenant that no new tenancy can be created?
                            If A is the tenant and his tenancy has not been ended and B goes in replacing A and there has been no assignment then A remains the tenant. An assignment requires a deed. It is only when a situation has arisen where it would be inequitable to deny that B is the tenant that an assigment by estoppel arises.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                              Only most of what you read on Shelter's website is correct. Not sure that point is.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                                Thank you for educating me.

                                Comment

                                Latest Activity

                                Collapse

                                • Reply to Tenant misleading everyone
                                  by DPT57
                                  I think the NTQ may be your best option. The tenant could defeat it by returning to live there but that would at least enable you to get the rent payments reinstated. If they dont return, the tenancy will end. You can serve the notice at the property, but make sure its also sent to wherever the tenant...
                                  16-06-2021, 22:08 PM
                                • Tenant misleading everyone
                                  by bertha
                                  I have a tenant who is been difficult I think due to health/mental problems,for the last year I have not been able to carry out epc,gas inspections.It seems tenant has been staying elsewhere ,I informed housing I could not enter the property and was advised by landlord liason officer to get a locksmith,enter...
                                  14-06-2021, 13:20 PM
                                • Reply to Inventory help
                                  by DPT57
                                  I based mine on an old RLA template. I think NRLA still have one. You could try that....
                                  16-06-2021, 22:00 PM
                                • Inventory help
                                  by Helvie
                                  Hi, Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where I could download a good quality inventory check list and guidance form, thanks.
                                  13-06-2021, 14:56 PM
                                • Reply to New Tenancy
                                  by DPT57
                                  Your questions are too wide ranging for a forum. The answers would form a long article. Asking questions on here is not a substitute for reading. I suggest you join the NRLA and read all their guides and checklists....
                                  16-06-2021, 21:54 PM
                                • New Tenancy
                                  by SpringGreen
                                  After the property is ready for advertistng what does a landlord need to mindful of.
                                  1. what are the pros and cons in terms of tenancy agreement CONTRACTUAL AND STATUORY ?
                                  2. applicants - how do landlord usually vet them ?
                                  3. inventories (what comments or descriptions to use ? )...
                                  12-06-2021, 09:11 AM
                                • Reply to County Court Bailiffs 1 June
                                  by Perce
                                  Slackjawedyokel - my tenant does not seem to be in the property. I have no clue where he is or whether he will return.. The neighbours said that police were looking for him but when I checked with the police they could not find anything on the system. The police were very nice and helpful and asked...
                                  16-06-2021, 21:20 PM
                                • County Court Bailiffs 1 June
                                  by Perce
                                  Hello

                                  I have a warrant for repossession, the ban is over tomorrow. How long does it take to hear from the County Court Bailiffs ? 1 week ? 1 month? What is the process ?...
                                  31-05-2021, 11:30 AM
                                • Reply to Pre action protocol
                                  by flat27
                                  Thank you for all your knowledge!! I’ve been reading about part 36 - they haven’t said it’s part 36 and they haven’t explained the basis of their figure. Also they have only given 7 days not 21.
                                  I assume therefore it cannot be taken as part 36?
                                  I’ve read that part 36 cannot be...
                                  16-06-2021, 21:07 PM
                                • Pre action protocol
                                  by flat27
                                  Hi - my tenant has moved out and has caused extensive water damage due to not reporting a leak and just leaving it to cause damage. We have tried to claim damages but he does not want to sort this amicably- does anyone have a template pre action protocol letter to start the court process? Any advice...
                                  15-06-2021, 17:06 PM
                                Working...
                                X