Permitted occupier question

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    Permitted occupier question

    Had an interesting conversation with a really polite lady who explained her partner won't go on any agreements with her 🇲🇦..goes on to explain that he's lived with her for 12 years and it's an "on off relationship" always been that way, no kids, she tells me she prefers it if he can just go and they don't owe each other anything. She likes to pay for everything, has all bills in her own name, got her own business and own all her own things and he just comes and goes like a boyfriend... He goes back to his mums for a while when they get sick of each other and she owns her own property which she rents out so he has no claim on anything... sounds a bit of a commitment phobe but I aren't here to judge and if it works for them then that's great. Not an ideal set up for a LL to start off with but then every situation in life is actually temporary until it changes... IE taking a single person doesn't guarantee they won't wish to move a new partner in, or have one staying over frequently

    If you were to meet them and liked them both and they were proceedable ...would you reference/credit check the PO ? I personally would want to

    please don't assume by asking this I am "persuing" them .. I like to remain open minded and am interested to hear of other similar stories and how it turned out etc.

    #2
    Can she afford the rent on her own? They sound like a non-starter as a joint tenancy

    Comment


      #3
      Copied n pasted from post ; She likes to pay for everything, has all bills in her own name, got her own business and own all her own things

      ​​​​she owns her own property which she rents out so he has no claim on anything..

      An independent woman with no kids

      Comment


        #4
        You would need to do a credit check and possibly see bank statements etc to satisfy yourself of this but if she pans out just offer her a single tenancy. He sounds more like a regular guest to me, which is her business and nothing realky for you to do.

        Comment


          #5
          Of course I would need to reference and credit check her,. I was asking about whether others would credit check a PO ..permitted occupier !

          Comment


            #6
            there is no option of any joint tenancy ...that's the point of this thread

            I am not actively "pursuing it" as the only option either ...just interested to hear of others experience with this and how it went

            as i said ...when you look at couples and the fact that everything is in fact temporary with no guarantees.. this may not be as bad an option as a couple who could split up and one not be able to afford it, though I just personally are not keen on the P.O idea if it means generally they are not credit/reference checked... as they could be well dodgy

            Comment


              #7
              But, having said all that he's a but close to the full-time-resident possibility (eg the relationship becomes happier or his mum shuffles off this mortal coil).

              Were I landlord I'd agree to him as a permitted occupier as long as he passed credit check & right-to-rent. Bet there's a problem lurking....

              (yes, call me cynical..)
              I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

              Comment


                #8
                I agree and also ...permitting an occupier as such would mean informing the local council of who lives there otherwise LL is knowingly hiding information from Local authority ...can't sign docs with him on then omit to include him on ithe information we send.. unless he's a paying resident on his mum's council tax bill

                Comment


                  #9
                  "Permitted occupier" (very much in quotes) is another concept conjured up out of the mists in recent years. A tenancy involves the grant of exclusive possession. There is no rule of law which says that only a tenant may occupy the property. Under the law of landlord and tenant, a tenant can do what he likes in a property subject only to complying with the common law obligation not to commit waste and with the terms and conditions of the lease. Whilst conditions prohibiting overcrowding and restricting occupation to certain categories e.g. those over 55, are permitted, and you can prohibit the tenant from giving up control over any part of the premises, in general you cannot control who lives in a property with the tenant. If you impose a restriction saying that only the tenant may occupy the property it has to be a derogation from grant, unless perhaps the property is a studio or bedsit with a single bed.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Interesting Lawcruncher as the RLA's AST agreement (in which I purchased in 2017) states nobody else shall live there, even says no children shall live there ..and this isn't a specific document for a bedsit, studio or 1 bedroom property it's a standard AST

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Lawcruncher View Post
                      "Permitted occupier"
                      in general you cannot control who lives in a property with the tenant. If you impose a restriction saying that only the tenant may occupy the property it has to be a derogation from grant, unless perhaps the property is a studio or bedsit with a single bed.
                      my reply above was in relation to this specific wording

                      RLA - AST copyright dated 2016 (purchased and used in April 2017)
                      image.jpeg

                      Would I be correct to assume the PO name would go in the box that currently states Nobody Else ?

                      Not it saying I am doing this (doesn't mean I am pressing ahead) but just for discussion purposes and beneficial / useful info for anyone else reading this thread




                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rewolf View Post

                        RLA - AST copyright dated 2016 (purchased and used in April 2017)
                        image.jpeg

                        Would I be correct to assume the PO name would go in the box that currently states Nobody Else
                        Yes if you want to, although it makes little difference I suspect. And why would you think it reasonable to credit check someone who has no financial relationship with you and is little more than a guest?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I think the idea must be to cross out "nobody else" and insert the name of the PO.

                          I cannot quote any direct authority to back what I said in post 9, but I think it follows from basic principles. It has to be implicit that if you let a three bed house that the tenant can make full use of it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            There are a couple of practical issues that oppose the basic legal principle.

                            One is that BTL lending and insurance often contain terms that require all adult (usually) occupants to be included in an AST - which is also often the only tenancy type allowed. If you don't want them as a tenant, they pretty much have to be documented somehow.

                            The other is that it is practically quite difficult to remove an occupant previously allowed residence by a now missing tenant. There is a cost associated with such an issue, and it is, therefore, sensible to introduce terms to prevent the issue arising.

                            What I do think is wrong is the idea of credit checking the additional person, or not allowing them to move in - that's simply outside the role of a landlord.

                            As a side issue - if a landlord grants someone the right to live somewhere (in some form) as part of a tenancy, they are subject to the Right to Rent sanctions if that person has no right to reside in the UK. The issue (which is not something I have seen documented as an issue in a real court) hinges on whether

                            "reasonable enquiries were [not] made of the tenant before entering into the agreement as to the relevant occupiers, or

                            (b)reasonable enquiries were so made and it was, or should have been, apparent from the enquiries that the adult in question was likely to be a relevant occupier."

                            What reasonable means here is problematic.
                            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                            Comment


                              #15
                              If you accept a second adult w/o any form of referencing them and don't put them on the AST as a PO they could easily say you verbally agreed they could live there as a non paying tenant, which to some degree would be true, then up-to the LL to prove otherwise.

                              The PO status has to be clearly documented imo

                              I wasn't asking where do I put this. I was using a previous agreement in which I personally had used before bought from the RLA and it was I that had typed Nobody Else into just for showing the section of the AST wording to Lawcruncher in response to Lawcruncher's earlier post

                              ​​​​​

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