Pet smells and deposits and no check-in report

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    #16
    Its my understanding that the courts really frown upon people refusing ADR, as its an opportunity to resolve things without going to court...

    I think your best bet now is to wait for Monday to pass, then talk to TDS again on Tuesday, see what has happened and where you stand.
    Without check in state of condition/inventory he will struggle. Having allowed pets AND its been 8 years will all count against any claims


    Did your pet(s) have (regular) accidents in the house? As that is all that could lead to that level of damage to flooring. A one off accident does not do that.

    We have pets (2 cats and a dog) and an accident in the house is very rare, usually only when one of them is ill.

    If you believe that the damage is due to you (well, your pets), and that you carry some responsibility then its probably right and fair to try make an offer towards the cost of the ex-LL to cover the loss of life of the carpet/underlay and some remedial work.

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      #17
      Eight years with a pet allowed, the carpets will need to be replaced as normal wear and tear.
      It's basically worthless.

      And with no check in condition report / inventory, the landlord hasn't got much of a chance with ADR.
      That's still the best outcome here.
      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

      Comment


        #18
        Thanks, guys.

        I think at this point we are waiting to see how the LL responds. I want to again stress to everyone that we have received no deduction reports, quotes, bills, statements, anything and we're more than 45 days since leaving the property - it's very hard to respond to someone stating things but not providing proof.

        I did do research on refusal of ADR. It isn't ever good - though things can get fuzzy with costs outside of the deposit if we head to court. If LL refuses ADR we need to make reasonable attempts to settle or reopen ADR prior to going the court route as if we outright refuse to be reasonable we might win the court case but wind up paying the LL fees. There's apparently two court cases that can be referenced, the first being the one stating refusing ADR looks poorly on the party who refused and a second one stating that if you cannot demonstrate serious consideration of settlement/ADR then regardless of winning or losing fees outside of the amount being disputed can be paid by the party the judge deems to be unreasonable. So, for example, if we spring to court action should LL refuse ADR we could win based on no check-in report, 8 years tenancy, etc. but be seen as unreasonable in going to court and liable for their legal fees.

        This could be a slog, or maybe over soon. Again, give you guys update Monday/Tuesday.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
          Whether pet urine is fair wear and tear is interesting.
          I would say it is damage.
          Using living space as a pet toilet (intentional or accidental) is not normal use. Just as using it as a human toilet would not be normal use.

          Comment


            #20
            In regards to those only commenting on the prospective damage - I'm not in disagreement that there is potential damage. We lived at the property 8 years and were allowed pets. We also had a small child! To say that the possibility of damage being present is highly likely!

            What I'm arguing is the fact that after 45 days the LL has provided us no documentation, materials, or quotes in regards to their statements. We know workmen have been at the property - so there must be something. That's where the flags went up and that is why we proceeded to ADR. We felt is best to have an impartial party help sort things out properly.

            Imagine you were told something you places a deposit on, rented and returned was damaged. You rented it for a long time, so you reasonably put in a request to get documentation so you can have a solid conversation. After more than a month of requests nothing turns up. The deposit is being held and you only have so much time before you have to go to small claims court - wouldn't you like to have the issue resolved?

            That's where we are.

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              #21
              I can see your point. Just try to save your emotions and remain detached. The way he has gone about it is not professional. You will never make such people see the error of their ways. It's not on their radar.

              Comment


                #22
                Permitting a T to keep a pet should not reduce their FW&T liability. Pets are resp of T, hence T damage at end of T

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by mariner View Post
                  Permitting a T to keep a pet should not reduce their FW&T liability. Pets are resp of T, hence T damage at end of T
                  I do agree, but, sadly, that is not how the deposit companies see it.
                  If LL agrees to pets, they are accepting a higher level of wear and tear. Same with if you accept tenants with young children or an extended family sharing.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by sam_cat View Post
                    Its my understanding that the courts really frown upon people refusing ADR, as its an opportunity to resolve things without going to court...
                    Is that just your educated opinion Sam or do you have evidence of it?

                    Personally, I wouldn't use ADR and would go to court.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by boletus View Post
                      Is that just your educated opinion Sam or do you have evidence of it?

                      Personally, I wouldn't use ADR and would go to court.
                      Over several years, two landlords I know (online and vaguely) have both been asked why they didn't use the ADR by a judge in a small claims hearing.

                      One was uncontested and the judge just seemed interested before signing the default and the other had suggested ADR and the tenant wouldn't play ball.

                      I can't suggest that either were proof that it's frowned on, but the issue did come up.
                      My guess is that it would be a minus point to have declined the tenant's request.

                      And, other than the possibility of the tenant not showing up, I don't think a court would give a different answer than ADR.
                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Hi Everyone,

                        We received official notice LL has refused ADR this morning. My understanding, based on process, is that while the refusal does not lean positive to the LL we must continue to be reasonable.

                        As such I will be using the various form letters offered to request materials, documentation, etc. once again in order to reach some form of settlement. We do know that the deposit is being held with TDS, so as for agency involvement - they've closed their side of the matter.

                        We have until the end of September to re-engage ADR and have to "exhaust" all alternative methods before engaging with the courts. Legal blogs state jumping straight to court action, despite a possible chance of success based on lack of evidence in terms of damage (at this moment as we still do not have any - I wish to stress that for those wondering about my initial query) might result in additional fees on our side as we did not go through all processes available.

                        I will continue to update and thank everyone who has provided advice. So everyone is aware I'm posting this on day 51 of officially returning the keys, so about day 41 at which we should have initially gotten notice of deduction with material support.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by xaviercat View Post
                          I will continue to update and thank everyone who has provided advice. So everyone is aware I'm posting this on day 51 of officially returning the keys, so about day 41 at which we should have initially gotten notice of deduction with material support.
                          Ouch.


                          Keep a copy of everything you do and any responses you receive, clearly dated. Keep a 'timeline' somewhere too, so you can easily see the flow eg:
                          Datetime - Who - Saved as - Summary
                          20/08/2018 09:00 - Me - email001.doc - Emailed request to ex landlord for breakdown of costs and what they are looking for
                          20/08/2018 23:14 - LL - email002.doc - Repled with promise to send something by end of tomorrow
                          22/08/2018 09:15 - Me - Email003.doc - Chased exLL

                          etc etc... Will make it very easy to keep track of what is going/what happened and when.
                          Do everything in writing, if LL phones or comes for a chat send an email straight after to confirm your understanding of the conversation eg:
                          Dear ExLL,
                          To confirm our conversation earlier today (and please correct me if my memory has failed me)
                          You apologies for sending these detail 50 days after they were due, we both agreed that the damage was not our cost and offered our offer to £100 to assist with the work.
                          Thanks
                          XavierCat


                          And as you said, be the 'good guy', dont send anything or say anything in anger, even if the exLL starts winding you up. Take a breath, imagine yourself in court explaining the conversation.

                          They CANNOT touch a penny of your money that is protected without your agreement or a court order, yes your money is tied up but it is safe.

                          Good luck!

                          Sam

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Thanks, Sam! All good advice.

                            I've learned something else - good for the people who are wondering about ADR expiration and the possibility I could be posting updates on this for the next six years (that's when the Statue of Limitations will expire):

                            - We can go back to ADR until the end of September.
                            - After that point it is settlement or court BUT...
                            - If TDS doesn't see movement on things from 6 months from today (the point of withdrawing ADR consent) they could pay us the deposit back.

                            For those wanting to keep track of all the parties involved the reason there was an initial delay in ADR was because the agency did not inform the LL of ADR. The agency paid the disputed deposit amount to TDS and are now out of the picture. If, in six months time we aren't resolved (I hope we are) then TDS will pay us the deposit back and the only recourse for the LL getting money is court. This is a slow elimination of not only options but involved agencies.

                            So there you have it - hopefully a neat timeline for what happens when my initial post about damage runs into no response from the LL to date.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Hi Everyone - Update

                              We still do not have any communication from the ex-LL. The maintenance team finished the work on the property today and invited us for a quick tour as they were the same people who worked on the house when we lived there. The areas that are likely to be contested have been updated with completely different materials, so this can prove problematic if/when the ex-LLs finally get in touch. We didn't take photos or attempt to get their costs - we considered this just an act of kindness.

                              The house has been up on rental sites since the end of last month for higher than we paid per month, but as far as we are aware there has been no contract signed.

                              At this point we are awaiting the ex-LL to put everything to us in writing on what they wish to charge and from this will we construct our response. I've been dutifully putting all communication/interaction into a dated document in case this escalates.

                              We are now 68 days since check-out.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                I bet you all thought this post was dead - but it isn't!

                                Today, for the first time ever, we got a number. Up until now we've had informal conversations in which the ex-LL asked us, "So, what do you think you should contribute?" Nothing more. We even approached them in October with someone who wanted to buy in the area... no number. (So you know, October, 2018 was the last conversation we had until what I am posting now.)

                                Now... and we're fairly sure this has come to us because they did manage to let out the house. It was a short let, and the tenants are due to leave next month so we likely returned to their minds in order to manage their cashflow.

                                The number they provided appears to be for the 'repair of the floor' - not apparently the area that was pointed out in the check-out report and not a like for like - the actual cost - at nearly £1,800. They've asked us, "What they think our fair share would be" rather than following any of the procedures I've seen for landlords looking to claim funds. As of Sunday, at FIVE MONTHS since they rejected the ADR and EIGHT MONTHS since we departed this number appears. And while I fully understand the law stating they can take us to court up to six years after we've departed, I'm not in the mood to negotiate. They've taken a very long time, the house was quickly let (thus their cashflow problems are their own and their choice to invest in the property to improve it their own). I thought about replying with links to all the landlord documentation I saw on how to properly submit repairs, but I'm at wits end.

                                So, advice, do I politely inform them that they are free to pursue this matter through the courts? Because at this point in the game we've waited so long for the deposit that I'm happy to wait another six months to likely have it awarded back due to lack of check-in report, refusal to pursue ADR, and excessive delay in supplying us a figure.

                                Comment

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