Section 21 query

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Section 21 query

    I was notified last week that my landlord would be serving me with a section 21 as he has recently sold the property and the buyers are wanting to move in to it.

    I received a copy of the notice, along with receipts from the post office, by email today and I’m a bit confused by it.

    Firstly, my name is incorrect as they have added an ‘s’ at the end of my surname.

    Secondly, it says they require possession after 26/08/2018. My tenancy started on 21/12/2015 initially for a year with rent payable on 21st of each month. Does this mean I would have to pay rent on 21/08/2018 for another month or would it be pro-rated?

    I don’t want to be awkward with them and am looking for somewhere else to move to but is this notice valid?

    #2
    The extra "s" on your name probably isn't enough for the notice to be invalid. It's obviously meant for you, and you know that it is, so the spelling isn't critical.

    The rent issue is quite common with s21 notices. Unless your tenancy agreement is very specific (and I've never seen one that is), the rent is due on the 21st for the whole month and there is no requirement or option to pro-rata it.

    However, in real life, almost every landlord expects that the final rent will be paid for the period you are staying there only. As there are a number of different ways to arrive at a daily rental figure, I'd talk to your landlord to agree what the rental figure should be. It's daft to fall out over a few pounds at this point.

    To see if the notice is valid - here's a checklist - https://markprichard.co.uk/content/d...ecker-tool.pdf
    ​​​​​​​
    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

    Comment


      #3
      I’m not going to quibble with them over a few pounds I was just confused as to why the notice states that it requires possession after the 26th rather than after the 21st.

      If I find another place can I leave by 20th so I’m not going in to a new month or does it have to be after 26th?

      Comment


        #4
        To be honest, at this point, you might be better off seeing what you and your landlord can agree.

        The legal position is fixed and not very flexible.
        You can leave on the 20th without the landlord's agreement (so it's entirely in your court).
        But to do that you'd have to give a minimum of a month's notice ending on that date (as it sounds like that's the end of a rental period, which is another requirement) - so you'd have to find a new place and give notice before 20th July.

        On the other hand, if you want to do something different and can agree it with the landlord, you can do what you both agree.

        I'm not sure why the landlord gave notice expiring on 26th either.
        It makes things more complicated and could have easily been the 20th.
        But perhaps they were worried they wouldn't get the minimum of two months - given the date today.
        If they posted it yesterday first class, it might not have made it in time.

        One thing that is in your favour is that while your notice ends the tenancy, the landlord's doesn't.
        So they can't be 100% sure you'll leave when they want (you could wait for them to evict you through the court).
        So they'd be sensible to work with you to get things to go smoothly.
        When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
        Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

        Comment


          #5
          By negotiation, yes. Most landlords would accept that although they don't have to.

          Comment


            #6
            Thank you! I’m going to speak with the letting agents as they were the ones who notified me last week that the landlord was wanting to issue the section 21 and who emailed me a copy.

            I don’t want to be awkward with them at all but I don’t want to get to the 20/08/2018 and pay another months rent and have them expect me to be out 6 days later.

            I’m hoping as it’s so the place is vacant for the new owner they will be helpful and if I can give notice 20/07 then I will.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Diwalt View Post
              I was notified last week that my landlord would be serving me with a section 21 as he has recently sold the property and the buyers are wanting to move in to it.
              If they've sold it, i.e. past tense, then don't you have a new landlord? And if you do indeed have a new landlord, then if the s21 was given by the old landlord, it surely wouldn't be valid.

              The new landlord need to serve you notice within two months telling you that you have a new landlord.

              Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
              The rent issue is quite common with s21 notices. Unless your tenancy agreement is very specific (and I've never seen one that is), the rent is due on the 21st for the whole month and there is no requirement or option to pro-rata it.​​​​​​​
              (Leaving aside whether it's actually worded in a way that does what parliament intended) Section 21C of the 1988 Act?
              I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

              I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by KTC View Post
                (Leaving aside whether it's actually worded in a way that does what parliament intended) Section 21C of the 1988 Act?
                "as a result of the service of a notice under section 21 the tenancy is brought to an end before the end of a period of the tenancy,"

                I don't see it because of "as a result", which means (as far as I can tell) that the end of the tenancy has to arise because of the s21 - which limits this process to a tenancy ending following a repossession order. "result" being different than "following" or "after" - which would be inappropriate for all kinds of reasons. "As a consequence" might work.

                The alternative view, which is that surely that's not what was intended - if only because, if that is the intention, the calculation can't be made until the tenancy end date is known, which the court can't be certain of so section 3 is impossible - does makes sense.

                I get the feeling that it just doesn't crop up much in real life - and, presumably, even less in court.
                So, outside this kind if forum, it just doesn't have any effect.

                On the other hand, your point about who is the landlord is spot on - never considered that!
                When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                Comment


                  #9
                  In principle, you could give your own notice, for the 20th, but you would need to be absolutely sure that you could really move out by then before doing that. As a tenant, you only need to give one month's notice.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    "as a result of the service of a notice under section 21 the tenancy is brought to an end before the end of a period of the tenancy,"

                    I don't see it because of "as a result", which means (as far as I can tell) that the end of the tenancy has to arise because of the s21 - which limits this process to a tenancy ending following a repossession order. "result" being different than "following" or "after" - which would be inappropriate for all kinds of reasons. "As a consequence" might work.

                    The alternative view, which is that surely that's not what was intended - if only because, if that is the intention, the calculation can't be made until the tenancy end date is known, which the court can't be certain of so section 3 is impossible - does makes sense.
                    It's as a result of a section 21 notice, not as a result of an order for possession made under section 21. If the tenant wouldn't have left if not for the receipt of a section 21 notice, then I say it's a result of it. Here, the OP would be leaving clearly because they've received the section 21.

                    Subsection (3) are relevant only when an order for possession is involved, but I don't see it limiting subsection (1) to only those cases.

                    Originally posted by jpkeates View Post
                    I get the feeling that it just doesn't crop up much in real life - and, presumably, even less in court.
                    There is that, since we'd normally have either a tenant serving their own notice to quit in response in which case the end coincide with a period, or there's a surrender and acceptance where the landlord and tenant have come to some agreement. And then in court, it'll be county courts, which wouldn't normally be reported.
                    I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                    I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by KTC View Post
                      It's as a result of a section 21 notice, not as a result of an order for possession made under section 21. If the tenant wouldn't have left if not for the receipt of a section 21 notice, then I say it's a result of it. Here, the OP would be leaving clearly because they've received the section 21
                      A landlord's notice can't bring the tenancy to an end.
                      When the tenant leaves, that's a surrender of the tenancy which brings the tenancy to an end.

                      We can't infer a causal relationship to make the deregulation act make sense.

                      Where do you stop?
                      Tenant digs up garden, landlord gets the hump, they have an argument and the landlord serves notice, following which the tenant leaves.
                      Is the end of the tenancy the "result" of the notice, the argument or the digging?

                      How do we arrive at the cause of something being the last but one significant action?
                      When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                      Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                      Comment


                        #12
                        It doesn't matter what caused the service of the section 21 notice so long as the tenancy is bought to an end as a result of a section 21 notice.

                        That subsection also doesn't say how the tenancy is bought to an end, only that it's a result of a section 21.

                        I think the intent by parliament is clear, whether what they drafted actually does what they intended is a different matter altogether!
                        I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                        I do not answer questions through private messages which should be posted publicly on the forum.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          My home is currently sold subject to contract so it hasn’t completed yet so my landlord hasn’t changed yet as far as I know! (That’s what it’s showing as on Rightmove anyway!)

                          I have received 2 physical copies of the notice today so I will speak to the agents about it all as they are also trying to find me another place to live!

                          Comment

                          Latest Activity

                          Collapse

                          Working...
                          X