Deposit Protection Prescribed Information and Section 21

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    Deposit Protection Prescribed Information and Section 21

    Any advice very gratefully received...
    I began my tenancy in 2003 which is now an AST. In July 2015 I received an email from DPS with log in details about my deposit protection. I never logged into it. My LL died and his wife took over and gifted my home to her Daughter and the address on the DPS Certificate is no longer used as their address. I was never given any documents to sign at the time it was protected or anything other than the email from DPS.
    When I was given the Section 21 I was not given the deposit or any Certificates. I simply have the email and log in details from 2015.
    Would this be an issue with the possession Claim in Court?

    #2
    Has the person who is now your landlord written to you and confirmed that they are now your landlord and given you an address in England or Wales to pay rent and serve notices?

    Have you had any new fixed term tenancy agreements since the first one?
    If so when and for how long?

    Was the deposit paid in 2003?
    When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
    Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

    Comment


      #3
      My tenancy agreement is still the same one from 2003 which is when i paid the deposit. I simply got an email in July 2015 from DPS.
      The person who's name is on the deeds is my deceased landlords daughter. But I only found out when I did a search on the land registry. I thought it was her Mother who I pay my rent to and who signed the Section 21. The court papers are submitted by the daughter. I presume thats why the Council wrote to her also. They all use the same address but the office address is now closed. I hope thats not too confusing !

      Comment


        #4
        "Deeds", what deeds? The tenancy agreement? The owner on the land registry?

        "Council", where does the council come into this?

        If the landlord has been named as the daughter in the tenancy from the start, then it's not really an issue for them. If it was the father, and it's now the daughter, then she needed to have inform you in writing of the assignment, possibly if she inherited it, definitely if it went to the mother who then gave it to the daughter. However, that's a (minor) criminal offence issue, rather than one that will necessarily invalidate a section 21 other than a possible delay in possession proceedings while you argue whether the claimant has standing and she'll have to prove it.

        On the deposit issue, I'm assuming your original tenancy was a fixed term that ended before 6 April 2007 or that it was periodic from the start. In which case, so long as the deposit was protected before a section 21, it'd be fine. However.... that's the simple case where there's been no landlord changes. A change in landlord complicates matter....
        I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

        Comment


          #5
          The section 21 notice should be invalid if a name is entered as Landlord is not correct and the form says they are the landlord. A court may or may not act accordingly.

          If an attempt is made to repossess via a court claim, the application should fail on the same basis, and it is not possible for someone (other than a solicitor) to represent the landlord in court.

          The transfer of title in the property doesn't change who the landlord is, the notification to the tenant moves the landlord from the previous holder of that position to the new incumbent.

          If the mother is who the tenant pays rent to, I don't see that the daughter has any standing at all, other than possibly as the landlord's agent.
          Last edited by jpkeates; 17-04-2018, 08:53 AM. Reason: Section 21 notice doesn't have to use form 6a!
          When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
          Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

          Comment


            #6
            Who/what is named as landlord on original tenancy agreement? Does that name match that on s21, please?
            I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

            Comment


              #7
              I see, thank you....

              It has always been the fathers name on the tenancy and DPS and old address of an office,( recently no longer in use,) since 2003.
              The mother/wife inherited the house and then she gifted it to the daughter.



              I am confused about deeds and landlords and land owners. I thought my landlady was the mother, but its the daughter who is submitting the court papers for the possession order and who owns the house in question. I presume the mother is acting as an agent of sorts.

              Comment


                #8
                The name on the original tenancy agreement and DPS is the landlord who is now deceased and that is still my tenancy agreement.

                The name given and signed on the section 21 is the wife and i pay her my rent since her husband passed away.

                The court paper for the possession order is being submitted and is signed by the daughter, who was gifted the house and put on the deeds in Nov 2017.

                So no, the name on my tenancy agreement does not match the name on the section 21.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Sigh! You still state "landlord" is "landlord".. Which of the various people is named on tenancy as landlord, please! Can we assume you mean father of daughter is named as landlord?

                  Suggest you 'phone Shelter 0808 800 4444 to discuss.

                  If you've been paying anyone other than original named landlord you could be deemed to have agreed to a new tenancy.

                  For a change of landlord (any circumstances) new landlord must serve notices compliant with sections 48 and section 3. If not served, no rent due (!) and after a bit, criminal offence. See
                  http://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/...rds_identity#3
                  Requirements when change of landlord

                  If there is a change of landlord, the new landlord must provide the tenant with her/his name and address in writing:[8]
                  • within two months after the transfer of interest in the property, or
                  • no later then the next day that rent is payable, where this is more than two months after the transfer.

                  If this is not complied with, the old landlord will remain liable for any breach of the tenancy agreement until either s/he or the new landlord provides the tenant with the new landlord's name and address.

                  If the new landlord does not comply s/he can also be prosecuted by the local authority and a fine of up to £2,500 can be levied in the magistrates court.[9]
                  I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Right, I shall ring Shelter, excuse my rambles I am a bit overloaded with confusion. The reason I mentioned the Council was because the daughters husband and a workman attempted an illegal eviction and so the Council wrote a warning letter to the landlord (which they sent to the daughter) sigh

                    Yes My Tenancy Agreement has the deceased Father named as the Landlord

                    I was emailed by his wife and told to pay my rent into her name and bank account shortly after he died.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by theartfullodger View Post
                      If you've been paying anyone other than original named landlord you could be deemed to have agreed to a new tenancy.
                      I guess it's possible, but I doubt it's an issue to worry about here. The originally named landlord is dead. As far as the OP is aware, the mother inherited the tenancy. No one else has come forward arguing they are in fact the landlord, and not the mother/daughter. The mother/daughter certainly wouldn't do so.

                      In terms of the section 21, again, on the basis that she inherited the tenancy, it's probably valid even if no section 3 notice was given. The assignment to the daughter is more complicated. OP could contest whether she has standing as landlord to bring the claim for possession, and she'd have to show that she was assigned the tenancy not just the house. But if she can do that, assuming that the assignment predates the claim, again it's probably fine notwithstanding any criminal offence she may have committed not giving a section 3 notice.

                      The OP might have a defence based on the deposit. "No section 21 notice may be given in relation to the tenancy at a time when the deposit is not being held in accordance with an authorised scheme." If the deposit needed re-protection or a notice of change of landlord to the scheme needed to have been given but wasn't, then it's arguable there. And did the requirements under section 213 of the Housing Act 2004 applies afresh when the mother became landlord? If so, the s21 wouldn't had been valid and penalty would also applies.

                      If no relevant section 48 Landlord and Tenant Act 1987 given, then no rent due until given. But that's would only be relevant if the possession claim was on ground 8 arrears, not section 21.
                      I am not a lawyer, nor am I licensed to provide any regulated advice. None of my posts should be treated as legal or financial advice.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Thanks: Did wife give you her actual address & name and also (if required if address not in England or wales) an address in England or wales?

                        Do we take it you have had no formal notices from daughter?
                        I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The wife sent an email which gave details of a new bank account in her name to pay my rent into and her address is on the footer of the email which is their office in the UK and the same office as it has always been.

                          Recently the address on the footer of her emails has changed to another office and different address

                          Yes correct! I have had no formal notices from the daughter. Only the court papers for the possession order which are named and signed by her (the daughter)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The old style s21 notice (which can be used for this tenancy) can be signed by anyone (as long as they don't claim on the form to be the landlord).

                            The daughter can't attend any hearing in place of the mother, but we're not there yet.

                            It's going to be a perfectly valid defence to any possession claim that the landlord was and is the original landlord or his estate. Paying rent to a different bank account when a landlord dies is quite common, but it takes a while to get an estate in order to the point where property can be transferred to someone else or a tenancy assigned/novated. Simply changing the target for rent doesn't start a new tenancy, the original landlord is dead, but the estate continues as landlord .

                            A tenant isn't meant to try and work out what's happened and who their landlord is, someone should tell them.

                            The bigger issue now is that even the dumbest landlord will be successful at some point, all it's possible to do in this case is delay things.

                            At some point, they'll get possession and the tenant will have to find somewhere else to live - it's better to start now and use the time available, as otherwise everything gets very rushed and stressful.
                            When I post, I am expressing an opinion - feel free to disagree, I have been wrong before.
                            Please don't act on my suggestions without checking with a grown-up (ideally some kind of expert).

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Thank you for all this very helpful information.. yes indeed it is better to look for a new home as I understand all this work will merely delay things. I was caring for my my Father during the time of receiving the section 21 and now, and he died very recently so the extra time would be very helpful as I have been pre occupied with his illness, as well as problems with harassment which have now been dealt with by a council warning. It is very useful to be able to look into this and also to unravel the confusion.

                              Comment

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