Restrictions applicable to letting out caravan in garden?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Restrictions applicable to letting out caravan in garden?

    This is a spin-off from a question someone posted on the HMO forum, but seems more pertinent here: are there any restrictions/implications in terms of planning permission, council tax, or anything else, if a caravan or log cabin is parked outside a house on private land (e.g.a garden) and someone is allowed to live in it, long-term, as a tenant?
    'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

  • #2
    Does one not need planning permission for a residential caravan?
    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
      Does one not need planning permission for a residential caravan?
      I don't know! That's what I am asking
      'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, my limited knowledge rests on the definition of 'development'. See TCPA 1990, below. I've omitted irrelevant bits and underlined one very relevant bit. Unless caravan use is incidental to house use, it's development and therefore needs p/pmsn.

        55. Meaning of development and new development.

        (1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, in this Act, except where the context otherwise requires, development, means the carrying out of building, engineering, mining or other operations in, on, over or under land, or the making of any material change in the use of any buildings or other land.

        (1A) For the purposes of this Act building operations includes...

        (2) The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land:
        (a) the carrying out for the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any building of works which:
        (i) affect only the interior of the building, or
        (ii) do not materially affect the external appearance of the building,
        and are not works for making good war damage or works begun after 5th December 1968 for the alteration of a building by providing additional space in it underground;
        (b) ...
        (c) ...
        (d) the use of any buildings or other land within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such;
        (e) ...
        (f) in the case of buildings or other land which are used for a purpose of any class specified in an order made by the Secretary of State under this section, the use of the buildings or other land or, subject to the provisions of the order, of any part of the buildings or the other land, for any other purpose of the same class.
        (g) the demolition of any description of building specified in a direction given by the Secretary of State to local planning authorities generally or to a particular local planning authority.

        (2A) The Secretary of State may in a development order specify any circumstances or description of circumstances in which subsection (2) does not apply to operations mentioned in paragraph (a) of that subsection which have the effect of increasing the gross floor space of the building by such amount or percentage amount as is so specified.

        (2B) The development order may make different provision for different purposes.

        (3) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that for the purposes of this section:
        (a) the use as two or more separate dwellinghouses of any building previously used as a single dwellinghouse involves a material change in the use of the building and of each part of it which is so used;
        (b) the deposit of refuse...
        JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
        1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
        2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
        3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
        4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

        Comment


        • #5
          Hmmm, interesting; thank you.

          Two scenarios were envisaged in the other thread:

          (i) The 'tenant' pays rent to live in the caravan and is independent and self-contained apart from a cable supplying electricity to the caravan from the house, and the use of washing facilities in an outhouse.

          (ii) The tenant pays rent to live and sleeps in the caravan, but uses the kitchen and bathroom in the house (along with 4 other tenants). Elec. cable as above.

          In both cases, electricity bills are shared by all 5.

          In either of these scenarios, would the use of the caravan be classed as 'incidental' - or something else?
          'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
            Two scenarios were envisaged in the other thread:

            (i) The 'tenant' pays rent to live in the caravan and is independent and self-contained apart from a cable supplying electricity to the caravan from the house, and the use of washing facilities in an outhouse.

            (ii) The tenant pays rent to live and sleeps in the caravan, but uses the kitchen and bathroom in the house (along with 4 other tenants). Elec. cable as above.

            In both cases, electricity bills are shared by all 5.

            In either of these scenarios, would the use of the caravan be classed as 'incidental'?
            I doubt it. Surely "incidental use" mean use of the external land, for normal secondary purposes, by whoever owns or lives in the house (H). Assume that H owns a house (freehold or leasehold). H can go and sit in the garden; or plant vegetables in the garden; or leave a holiday caravan in the garden until it's holiday time. Those are reasonably callable "incidental" uses to H's house residence; how could a separate person's occupation be?

            Also see other Acts- Caravan Sites Act, Mobile Homes Act, etc. I don't have enough time to research them- sorry.
            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jeffrey View Post
              I doubt it. Surely "incidental use" mean use of the external land, for normal secondary purposes, by whoever owns or lives in the house (H). Assume that H owns a house (freehold or leasehold). H can go and sit in the garden; or plant vegetables in the garden; or leave a holiday caravan in the garden until it's holiday time. Those are reasonably callable "incidental" uses to H's house residence; how could a separate person's occupation be?

              Also see other Acts- Caravan Sites Act, Mobile Homes Act, etc. I don't have enough time to research them- sorry.
              Don't worry...yes, I agree with your reasoning. Thank you.

              I only asked because Rodent seemed to think pp would not be needed, but it seems to me it would.

              Even more interesting is the question (which remained unresolved last night over the darts and dominoes in our local): if anyone with a patch of garden could legitimately house a tenant in a caravan on it, would the gardens of Middle England be overrun by tenanted caravans... or not?
              'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

              Comment


              • #8
                Overrun by, er, 'travelling folk' possibly!
                JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                Comment


                • #9
                  If house is let to 5 people and their happens to be a caravan in the garden , then "so what" if one of the 5 decides to sleep in said caravan then who is to question this ?

                  The Rodent
                  A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
                  W.Churchill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rodent1 View Post
                    If house is let to 5 people and there happens to be a caravan in the garden , then "so what" if one of the 5 decides to sleep in said caravan then who is to question this?
                    (Leaving aside the regular problem of a letting to >4 people)
                    Such a caravan seems ancillary to the house. If so, siting the caravan there is not "development" as defined.
                    JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                    1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                    2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                    3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                    4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also if caravan is "towable" and not "fixed" no council tax can apply ?
                      The Rodent
                      A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
                      W.Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As I understand it, you are permitted to use a caravan for extra accommodation providing it's within the grounds of the main residence and not completely self contained.....i.e.relies on facilities of the main house and is used as e.g. extra bedroom,grannies own domain or even a study perhaps.
                        I own a small block of flats together with a large plot of land to the rear which I'm trying to obtain P.P. for two dwellings on.....I've been refused at council level and in the process of appeal but if unsuccessful wondered if one caravan for each of the four flats could be permitted under the same rules as previously mentioned....the idea would be to allocate an exclusive area of ground for each flat.
                        Out of interest, if an enforcement by the council to remove a caravan came about and you then complied to the notice within the given period, what would the consequences be if at a later date you simply towed the caravan back in place and used it as before.
                        From experience, I know only too well you can't beat the system but if you knew how much my local planners have lied and mucked me about in the past then would understand why I'd like to give them the runaround also, providing I don't shoot myself in the foot that is!!

                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can see how there would not be a problem vis a vis planning permisison if caravan in garden is ancilliary, but what if it is tenanted by a sole occupant independent of the main house (e,.g had its own kitchen and bathroom)?
                          'Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation fo the first link on one memorable day'. Charles Dickens, Great Expectations

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mind the gap View Post
                            I can see how there would not be a problem vis a vis planning permisison if caravan in garden is ancilliary, but what if it is tenanted by a sole occupant independent of the main house (e,.g had its own kitchen and bathroom)?
                            Sounds like breach of planning control, doesn't it?
                            JEFFREY SHAW, solicitor [and Topic Expert], Nether Edge Law*
                            1. Public advice is believed accurate, but I accept no legal responsibility except to direct-paying private clients.
                            2. Telephone advice: see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=34638.
                            3. For paid advice about conveyancing/leaseholds/L&T, contact me* and become a private client.
                            4. *- Contact info: click on my name (blue-highlight link).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think you'll find that if a caravan/mobile home is used as a self contained residential unit to live in, other than whilst carrying out a self build project or major works to an existing property for example, P.P. would be required as if it were a traditional built dwelling with very little chance to say the least of success.
                              If you have the ground,a prospective tenant who knows the situation and neighbours who don't, then providing the caravan isn't going to cause a nuisance you could take a chance.....I would consider it if the caravan could be positioned inconspicuously, providing I already had a caravan or could buy one cheap.......Even if you were found out and enforcement action taken, you could appeal and apply for planning retrospectively by which time months and months have gone by or even years.
                              In the meantime,a nice bit of extra income and the worst case being that you have to remove the caravan or the tenant and use it for holidays.

                              Bill

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              • Any recommended books/articles/videos for learning Property Development/Investing?
                                kshaan
                                Hi guys,

                                I'm totally new to property investing. I was wondering if any of you could share your recommended materials with me on this topic, perhaps materials that you used to get you started? I want to learn all the legal side to property investing, as well as the best strategies to go...
                                29-07-2017, 10:13 AM
                              • Is party all notice still valid? What to do next?
                                Myohmy
                                Hi All,

                                I have a question. I think I have some sneaky neighbours and would like to hear from you on experience and knowledge if you can.

                                Neighbours at back started works to an extension (the properties are grade 2 listed). I went and spoke to them as it is not clear where...
                                18-07-2017, 06:54 AM
                              • Reply to Is party all notice still valid? What to do next?
                                mk1fan
                                The Party Wall Act doesn't deal with Boundary disputes. If you don't know where the boundary is then this needs to be ressolved separately. A Line of Junction Notice can only be valid if there is a defined Line of Junction.

                                If they wish to appoint a lawyer to deal with matters there side...
                                28-07-2017, 13:42 PM
                              • planning appeal
                                ll2013
                                hi all,

                                I would like some advice.
                                I put in a planning application on my bungalow to create side dormers. Due to the back having two rooms the rear windows are in the far corners of each room. This wasn't too much of a problem as the sides had fixed, obscure windows. However, due to...
                                26-07-2017, 19:43 PM
                              • Property Development Mentor/training.
                                pdmalik
                                Dear All,

                                Just wondering if anyone can recommend any property development training/mentorship please? I know there are a few out there who have popped up there in last some years with "many years of development experience" whereas what they do in reality is just training - not...
                                23-07-2017, 16:51 PM
                              • Change of Use Permitted Development - Class M
                                jaymondo
                                Under Part 3 of the GPDO - Change of Use

                                Class M allows for

                                (a) a change of use of a building from—

                                iii) a mixed use combining use as a dwellinghouse with—

                                (aa) a use as a betting office or pay day loan shop, or

                                (bb) a use falling...
                                21-07-2017, 16:57 PM
                              • Reply to Change of Use Permitted Development - Class M
                                Tipper
                                As you are creating additional dwellings I would suspect full planning permission is required.
                                23-07-2017, 10:24 AM
                              • Reply to Change of Use Permitted Development - Class M
                                pilman
                                Since this Class of development requires prior approval it seems logical to seek approval for what you are proposing.
                                The LPA will either accept that this falls within Class M or not.
                                21-07-2017, 19:33 PM
                              • Reply to Is party all notice still valid? What to do next?
                                Myohmy
                                Thank you Al,

                                I contacted the recommended surveyor, but he is too far away. Thanks though. I've appointed another, I'm worried about the costs as he said it can cost in the region of £1000-2000. I have to appoint my own as their's has done a runner and the neighbours haven't identified...
                                19-07-2017, 22:12 PM
                              • Reply to Is party all notice still valid? What to do next?
                                flyingfreehold
                                bizarrely if properly appointed a party wall surveyor cant just walk away. He is stuck with the job once appointed. I have no connection with him but I would suggest you got help from someone who knows the law backwards. The best party wall surveyor I know is Harold Coyne FRICS of Coyne and Co who goes...
                                19-07-2017, 03:17 AM
                              Working...
                              X