Demise of the loft

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    Demise of the loft

    We are three leaseholders sharing the freehold of a property (which is divided into three flats).
    The recent buyer of the top flat asked for the loft to be demised to her (in exchange for her being responsible for the repairs of the roof/gutters). We have amended the lease and demised the loft to her.
    Do you think it is a fair deal? Is it too late to ask for a premium to be paid to the other leaseholders?
    Any help/suggestion is appreciated.

    #2
    If she were to later decide to do a loft extension she would normally still need the freeholder's consent at which point you could demand a premium (dependent on terms of lease).

    Comment


      #3
      And I hope it was written so she just gets demise of loft, not the roof: (Freeholder has yet more control)
      I am legally unqualified: If you need to rely on advice check it with a suitable authority - eg a solicitor specialising in landlord/tenant law...

      Comment


        #4
        You three have been foolish.

        NEVER, NEVER give away a VALUABLE asset.

        So the roof may never need repairs for the next 30 years,so how do you all benefit.

        The gutters should be cleared every 2 years, especially if there are a lot of trees about,
        ( tell her she must do this and set a date.her you do it.and pay for all the scaffolding as well )

        £ 30,000 new roof is required,
        or a £ 15,000 job replacing rotten fascia boards, and rotten ends of spars are also required to be replaced, together with more scaffolding, will she have the money ?

        The answer is NO.

        Did you check the interior condition of the roof, was is good for the next 100 years, or it's slowly rotting, which is why you transferred it

        I have no idea if you can reverse your decision, but should if you can.

        Comment


          #5
          She is indeed converting the loft into a bedroom and bathroom and is pushing us to get the signatures to give our consent.
          I want to have a licence to alter in place through lawyer.
          Please if you have any other suggestions/advice let me know.

          Comment


            #6
            Now is the time to ask for a premium to be paid to the other leaseholders.

            Converting the loft is a different proposition to giving her the demise of the loft.
            It is usual to ask for 50% of the increase in value of the flat, AND you must do so.

            You must ( yes must ) rescind the part where she is responsible for the maintenance of the roof .
            The roof keeps the water from entering all 3 flats.
            The building and flats I assume belong to you three; the freeholder,
            If when the flats were made and building converted, the original freeholder would have charged more for the lease if he had converted the loft.
            Therefore, as the freeholder could ask more if he had converted the loft, it is "not on" that a mere leaseholder can pocket an increase in value of the lease, and the freeholder gets nothing.

            The next person who buys the lease for top flat will be paying more than for the other two flats; could be up to their limit on available income, and when the roof need replacing / maintaining, they may just have no money at all to fix the roof or clear the gutters, Then you have to go to court to make them pay.
            Probably wont be able to pay and the water gushing into the other flats wont be stopped for months, so the top flat then has to find more money to fix the flats.

            And I hope the joists above the top flat ceiling are going to be replaced, as those beams are only to hold up the top flats ceiling and was not envisaged to support another living area and heavy baths etc etc.

            Go to a solicitor ; one with residential leasehold experience ( you ask if they have one ) and fix the problem of top flat being responsible for the roof.
            ,
            You cannot give away the loft space, AND give away the right to convert the loft, without a financial and substantial charge for the conversion.

            The roof ( timber and slates ) must be returned to the freeholder.
            Your ( right ) argument is shown above.

            I have said this before, the leases are not just for you three, but for all that come after you.

            Comment


              #7
              Agree with RAM entirely on this one. Merry Christmas.

              Comment


                #8
                Yes, she asked for the demise of the loft without explaining her plans. I now know that the plan is to convert the loft and, I suspect, that she will sell the flat straight after the conversion is done, making several thousand pounds in a very short period of time.
                The next buyer will buy the renovated flat which will come with the responsibility of the roof. Another option is that she will rent the flat out. What I know for certain is that she will NOT live at the property. It is 'just' an investment, a quick money making scheme.

                Are the property investors not regulated at all by any laws?

                Thank you for your help. I hope you all had a good Christmas.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Affinity View Post
                  .Are the property investors not regulated at all by any laws?
                  Yes, YOUR laws.
                  You do not do what you have allready done.

                  You do not give permisssion to extend into the roof, and if you do, the other leaseholders / shareholdes MUST receive financial compensation, MUST employ a surveyor ( at the top flats expence ), to look over the plans she will have had drawn up.

                  You MUST reverse your decision on granting one leaseholder the whole roof, stating it was an error, and cannot be as you have done.

                  ~Re-read my comments, and others, print them, and you and the other leaseholder say NO to her being resonsible for the roof, and No to converting the loft space.
                  She also needs a deed that any sub-tenant will obey the relevant terms of the lease.
                  She aslo needs your authorisation to sub let and that authorisation expires when a sub-tenant leaves, and she needs a new authorisation for the next sub-tenant.

                  If the remaining two don't have the Balls to correct your mistakes, I'm sorry, we can no longer help you.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I believe what RAM says is incorrect.

                    For residential properties, if the lease of the upstairs flat now includes the loft space and roof (owning the roof de facto means you own the airspace above as per Davies v Yadegar 1990), then the Freeholders have no right to ask for a premium for home improvements that are within the demise of the property, particularly if the works are going to increase the value of the property.

                    Freeholders can however charge a fee to approve the plans (which needs to be reasonable, e.g. no more than 1k). If you unreasonably withhold consent, the leaseholders of the upstairs flat may go to the First Tier Tribunal and prove that you are unreasonably stopping them from improving their flat which you have leased to them with the loft space and the roof and the tribunal will grant the leaseholders consent.

                    There are many MANY cases that you can find online where freeholders are trying to get premiums from their leaseholders for home improvements which are within their demised property and the court always sides with the leaseholders (unless it can be proved that the the works will decrease the value of the property which again will not be the case as you say that she will make money off the loft extension).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Vassena View Post
                      I believe what RAM says is incorrect
                      This thread is about getting nothing for the loft and nothing for the roof, and the concequences of giving everything away for free, and having only one person / leasholder having sole responsibility for the roof, and being unable to afford a new roof when the time comes.
                      Your arguments have validity, but the removal of the roof from a sole leaseholder back to the freeholders is most important.( if it can be done )

                      which then puts everything back to square one ( pay for extra loft space )

                      Last edited by ram; 15-01-2018, 18:50 PM. Reason: addition

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