Estates & Managment Consent to Let

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  • #16
    Ok thank you, sorry I have read the link you provided earlier in the thread.

    So based on the Holding & Management (Solitaire) Ltd v Cherry Lilian Norton case it would appear I would have likely success in winning a tribunal case given they are not willing to accept £40. Should I just write back and reference that case ask them for final reconsideration? Or should I ask them to break down the costs associated with £130? I am just trying to weigh up the approach I should take or just accept having to pay £130 for every tenant that rents my property for ever more.

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    • #17
      Up to you my friend.

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      • #18
        Have you checked the exact wording of your lease ?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by scriv View Post
          Have you checked the exact wording of your lease ?
          Hi scriv,

          I have and here's what it says (or at least the 2 sections that are most relevant):

          25. Not at any time during the Term:

          25.1 sub-let the whole or any part of the Demised Premises save that an under-letting of the whole of the Demised Premises is permitted in the case of an assured shorthold tenancy agreement or a company let with the prior written consent of the Manager or its agents (such consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed)

          26. Within one month after the date of any and every assignment transfer mortgage charge under-lease or tenancy agreement (including any immediate or derivative under-lease or tenancy agreement) of the whole or part of the Demised Premises for any term assignment of such under-lease or grant of probate or letters of administration order of court or other matter disposing of or affecting the Demised Premises or devolution of or transfer of title to the same to give or procure to be given to the Secretary of the Manager notice in writing of such disposition or devolution or transfer of title with full particulars thereof and in the case of an under-lease if required by the Manager a copy thereof for registration and retention by it AND ALSO at the same time to produce or cause to be produced to them the document affecting or (as the case may be) evidencing such disposition or other matter and to pay or cause to be paid at the same time to the Manager's Secretary such reasonable fee appropriate at the time of registration in respect of such notice perusal of documents and registration affecting the Demised Premises PROVIDED ALWAYS that in the case of a contemporaneous transfer and mortgage the fee shall only be payable on one of such matters


          25.1 mentions no fee and originally that was what I was going to stand by but the recommendation on this thread was that I should pay something reasonable.

          I've booked a free 15 min call with Lease Advice so will see what they say and report back.

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          • #20
            I notice the above refers to 'the manager'. That is not necessarily E&M. Do you have a different company organising repairs? They are 'the manager'.

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            • #21
              25.1 :I interpret that as saying that you have to apply for consent from the Manager or Agent in advance of the letting, but as you say, no fee is mentioned for the consent.

              26: they seem to be saying that there is a charge for notifying them of the tenancy and sending supporting documents within one month of the tenancy date - but that the charge has to be 'a reasonable fee' :

              - to pay or cause to be paid at the same time to the Manager's Secretary such reasonable fee appropriate at the time of registration in respect of such notice perusal of documents and registration affecting the Demised Premises


              I understand this to be a question as to what the reasonable fee is for the notification and registration only, not the consent....

              Good luck with the consultation with Lease and please do let us know.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                I notice the above refers to 'the manager'. That is not necessarily E&M. Do you have a different company organising repairs? They are 'the manager'.
                The Manager in the lease was Peverel OM which is now First Port. Some years back they offloaded the ground rent activities to Estates and Management which was when the sublet fee demands started coming out.

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                • #23
                  Then point out to E&M that they aren't 'the manager'.

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                  • #24
                    I spoke to Lease Advice and they provided the following points:

                    1. They pointed out there is a difference between whether the fee is a registration fee or fee for consent. If it is a registration fee then it typically doesn't qualify for dispute via a tribunal and would require going to court. If it is a fee for consent then I could go to tribunal. They mentioned a lot of these firms are using the registration fee loop hole as a way to avoid tribunals. If I read the language from E&M it says the fee is to register so presume that is their intent to avoid tribunals but they do make the effort to include the standard Administration Charges - Summary of Tenants' Rights and Obligations sheet

                    2. As expected and as JK0 has said challenging them in court would likely cost a lot more. However one other fact I was not aware of is if I did take them to court I would have to disclose this if I was to sell the property and that could potentially put off buyers if they know there was some form of dispute.

                    3. They still recommended I challenge them again in writing and include copies of previous cases to point out what is reasonable. Also to look to see if there are other landlords facing the same demands to compare and potentially club together.

                    So some points to consider - I will certainly see if I can find other landlords in the same building to perhaps confirm the charges are consistent.

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                    • #25
                      They still ask you to get consent. Are you sure nothing in the letter asks for a fee for that?

                      25.1 sub-let the whole or any part of the Demised Premises save that an under-letting of the whole of the Demised Premises is permitted in the case of an assured shorthold tenancy agreement or a company let with the prior written consent of the Manager or its agents (such consent not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed)

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                      • #26
                        Regardless of whether you have taken them to court or not, I think you would have to declare a dispute when selling anyway.

                        When I sold my property, I seem to remember being asked on a form about any disputes with or complaints about/from the landlord and I think the landlord is asked to declare the same and to outline any breaches of lease. I was also asked to provide copies of any correspondence I had had with the landlord.

                        I think you have a duty to the buyer to make them aware of an ongoing issue. I gave a brief resume with correspondence attached. Then there is no comeback afterwards if the buyer claims against you for failing to have told him of problems.

                        Contacting the other leaseholders in your block is a very sensible idea to compare and/or take up a group challenge.

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                        • #27
                          You really have to read and thoroughly understand your lease and identify who is demanding the fee. If you have a 3 party lease between the lessor ( FF) , Man Co and Lessee , are the lessees in control of the Man Co ?

                          E&M collects the annual ground rent and represents the freeholder. Does the Man Co have its own agent to collect service charge ? ( e.g Peverel / first Port ) . If the Directors of Man Co are the leaseholders, then you probably don't have to pay.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JK0 View Post
                            They still ask you to get consent. Are you sure nothing in the letter asks for a fee for that?
                            The wording in the letter is as follows:

                            To register a new tenancy: £130.00

                            To renew an existing tenancy: £65.00

                            Retrospective Consent Surcharge: £45.00

                            Our fees cover registering the subtenant on our records and granting consent where required, reviewing the title documents, IT systems and document storage and seeking Legal advice as and when required.


                            I did some more research, this looks this has been tried before against E&M from the notes of this case. In this case the fee of £95 was deemed reasonable but interestingly in point #37 a similar case for a fee of £135 was deemed unreasonable. Also in point #44 the QC did indicate a fee for a normal request would make the £95 unreasonable. So it changes like the wind...in my case they are actually foregoing the £45 retrospective and just charging me the £130 for each of the past 3 tenancies. I feel now I should probably let it go and pay them and then challenge them when I have a new tenant as my case will be stronger as that will be a "normal" case for consent and hence the fee will be viewed to be more unreasonable and then point this out using this case.

                            Originally posted by Gordon999 View Post
                            You really have to read and thoroughly understand your lease and identify who is demanding the fee. If you have a 3 party lease between the lessor ( FF) , Man Co and Lessee , are the lessees in control of the Man Co ?

                            E&M collects the annual ground rent and represents the freeholder. Does the Man Co have its own agent to collect service charge ? ( e.g Peverel / first Port ) . If the Directors of Man Co are the leaseholders, then you probably don't have to pay.
                            Consent is stated in the lease that it must come from the Manager. In the original lease it has Peverel (First Port). In the letter from E&M it states they act as agents for Proxima GR Properties Limited which has come up before on this forum. I am not clear on the relationship between Firstport and Proxima. To date, I pay Firstport fees for maintenance for common areas. Should I be contacting Firstport to get clarification of their relationship?

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                            • #29
                              I suggest you write offering the £40 quoting my case. However, it sounds like you intend to pay up anyway.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                For our development in North London completed around 2000 , the builder was St George which sold the flats under a 3 party lease including Lessor, Lessee and Man co. which is controlled by the leaseholders.

                                Peverel was the managing agent for the site and responsible for the service charge account. Peverel bought the freehold about one year after site completion from St George . Around 2007 , Peverel Group were taken over by Consensus Business Group which moved the freehold properties into Proxima GR and put Peverel Group Companies ( Management units etc ) into administration to wipe out £540 Mil of bank loans . Around 2007, E&M appeared as managing agent for Proxima to collect the ground rent and started demanding Global Consent Fees ( £400 + ) for subletting. One of the leaseholders ( a qualified solicitor ) asked E&M to show where in the lease E&M are entitle to make their demands. After checking the lease, E&M withdrew their demands for subletting fees.

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