Missing financial documents

[sailor1705]

Hi All

We have just taken back the management of our block in-house, we collected the paperwork from the last agent only to find that there is 3 years worth of Bank Statements and Invoices missing in a black hole somewhere. All of the previous directors have resigned so they are also on the suspect list.

Do we have any way of enforcing the return of these documents, as we are not managing the block and are required to keep up to 7 years financial paperwork,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We thought we would start with a strongly worded letter, but is there anywhere we can go to enforce the return of these.

All help would be greatly appreciated.

[sailor1705]

missing documents

Hi

A mistake in this,,,,,,,,, should read "we are NOW managing

[Dottie]

If you don't get anywhere with them - who's managing the bank account? You should be able to obtain past statements either from the bank (they may charge) or print them off online if you have/arrange internet banking.

Then with some sleuthing you ought to be able to identify payments and follow up with suppliers for duplicates. Are there likely to be many items to account for over that three years?

[ram]

As above, post 3.

If the documents are lost, you cannot enforce the production of that which is lost, but as above the bank can supply.

You can TELL the previous managing agents and previous directors that they will forward copies of bank statements within 28 days, and failure to do so may invoke an investigation on criminal charges of fraud / deception on the agents / directors.

Someone has mislaid them, burnt them, but the records still exist at the bank.

State also that if they are unable to find the statements, then they will pay for the bank copies to be forwarded to you.
Provided copies are delivered to your head office / address as stated within 28 days, with their agreement to pay your costs, then no crimiminal charges in respect of mislaid bank statements will be sought.
( They agree to pay, then you ask for copies )

You HAVE to show the seriousness of the situation. Financial documents over 3 years are lost, and you have pending items ref leaking flat roof, costs for clearing / surveying illegal structure on flat roof, illegal window replacements, garage doors / garage changes, and many more when you get to see the bank statements.

R.a.M.

[ram]

I understand the missing bank statements and invoices are not for the last 3 years just gone, but for a few years past when all the problems of directors paying for items for themselves out of the service funds.

If that is the case then you DO have a fraud investigation to be instigated if the invoices are not found.

( And you still have that reference number )

[leaseholdanswers]

As said the bank can supply these so at least you have some idea of what happened.

The agent should have kept records of expenses even if the bank statement is missing, and you are entitled to those records and can in turn look to sue them for failing to to keep them

The bank records are however less clear as if the account is in your company name then the agent only had control of that and the directors could have asked for and retained it.

[sailor1705]

Hi

Thanks for replies, not really worried about the Bank Statements as we can get from the internet. BUT, the invoices are another story as at the time there was some maladministration going on with payments for windows, and we need to put this right to move forward. ie

3 people withholding money until windows are paid for by the culprits

3 people withholding money until Lawyers fees for tribunal are paid for by the director(s) responsible for allowing the tribunal to go ahead.

We now have proof that the director concerned knew that myself and others were right about why we went to a tribunal, so they should have never gone to a lawyer with a closed case. £2-3K later, and all paid out of SC funds (Tribunal ruled otherwise). Mismanagement of the worst kind, aided and abetted by a very money hungry agent.

[ram]

3 people withholding money until windows are paid for by the culprits

3 people withholding money until Lawyers fees for tribunal are paid for by the director(s) responsible for allowing the tribunal to go ahead.

You must insist that the 3 or 6 people withholdng money, Cannot wthhold money that is due.
I asume it's withholdng service charges ?

The 2 things are different.
Service charges are due, irrespective if there is a pending review of maladministration or pending civil / legal charges against Directors.

You write and tell the offenders that they cannot take the law into their own hands, and the law will be seen to be done in due course when all missing informaton is gained, but they cannot withhold service charge monies due because civil actions have not yet been started ( due to all information not yet available ).

You have to be firm.
Even now .................

R.a.M.

[leaseholdanswers]

If you know who the payments were to then you can rebuild that from suppliers etc. If paid to former flat owners then see below.

Those who have not paid are daft, as you are all in the same boat, the company that owns/manages your building.. If the work has been completed satisfactorily then the contractor has to be paid, and funds kept on hand until they rectify any issues. Your bank account which holds service charge must be held on trust under section 42 of the Landlord and tenant Act 1987, and therefore are ring fenced from the company should it be sued for monies owed. If it is not then get it done today.

As a company and leaseholders, there is logic to this that they have to accept and understand. They must put the company in funds to continue and meet its obligations and cannot trade off this against a claim below as they are unrelated, like it or not. The choice is stark if they won’t help then you will resign and they can take over, or the company can become insolvent and be struck off. If they wont accept that then as below - letter before action, and simple money claim- sod em! The company must be in funds and continue on its business while in turn addressing past issues. providing a resolution ofmr the board that you paln to take action and seek advice will help.

You may also have to consider the fees paid out of service charge and ask all members or shareholders to make up that amount pending action, as the company must refund the service charge account, or face insolvency. That will focus minds.

You will be advised that the coy of advice and investigation will of course far exceed the 2/3k and unless the other amounts are significant, the cost of pursuing this many exceed what you recover. Better that this is writing from a lawyer so that it is a position that you all face, not one that you have arrived at and are imposing .


-As the amount due has been determined by a tribunal, they must pay the company they have no choice or defence (assuming it has been billed correctly etc).
-The company of which they are part has to take advice on legal action against the directors for mismanagement in respect of poor record keeping, and in turn any decisions.

-Now the former and any fraudulent activities if proven are actionable. However in the case of the tribunal, that you were right and won is not a basis for a claim as you had a contrary view and it was then determined. Unless you can show that at the time their decision was indisputably daft it is unlikely that the company has any claim against them.

[sailor1705]

"However in the case of the tribunal, that you were right and won is not a basis for a claim as you had a contrary view and it was then determined. Unless you can show that at the time their decision was indisputably daft it is unlikely that the company has any claim against them. "

Hi LA

Part of your reply above,,,,, I went to a tribunal to clear myself of being accused of owing money! They spent with extra charges from the agent they went to and lawyers fees they spent 8 times more than my claim was worth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, DAFT is not a strong enough word. It was more prejudice and spiteful than you can imagine.

I have since found a letter which states that there is no sinking fund allowed for in the Lease, and this proves that they (previous Directors and Agent) knew that I was right to dispute it, and that was over two years before the tribunal. Enquiries were made to a lawyer by the previous agent, so she knew they were wrong to go ahead with the tribunal. Hence they should pay the lawyers fees.

What to do next, I am not sure, but would love to pursue it!

[sailor1705]

A DEVELOPMENT,,,,, The stiff letter had the required effect,,,,, BUT ,,,,, we got more than we bargained for,,,, about 2 years of someone else's bank statements and bills and sensitive info, as well as our own.

There must be some sort of breach of data protection here, any ideas?

Agent no 1 handed to agent no 2, who obviously did not check any of it, then agent 2 handed it to us!

[ram]

A DEVELOPMENT,,,,, The stiff letter had the required effect
There must be some sort of breach of data protection here, any ideas?

Glad to see stiff letter got results

But don't waste time on data protection, you have enough to do forcing leaseholders to pay the service fees PRONTO.

Give the "wrong" info back to who it came from, just stating "you gave us this by mistake", then go home and forget all about it.
It's not your info that was sent to other people, so not your problem.

Give it back, draw a line under it, and get the money out of the leaseholders.

Sorry to be so cold, harsh etc, but some things that do not affect you, just have to be discarded so to focus on the important stuff.

Smile, it will all come together slowly, but by sending out more letters......... So don't delay.

Cheers... am glad to see things improving.

R.a.M.