cleaning

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • cleaning

    I am trying to let my flat and noticed yesterday that there was a lot of mud on the stairs. I'm going to keep an eye on it but I think standards have dropped of late.

    I am wondering what standard of service I can expect when it comes to cleaning? It's a converted house into 6 flats and I know the LL doesn't want to do any (shifting the responsibility on to the occupants) and I suspect that the stairs and lobby are only cleaned once a month. We (6 flats) were billed £180 for the year in advance which included fire alarm testing. The LL and their family own 3 of the leases and they sublet those flats and whenever a prospective tenant views their flats the building seems to be cleaned. Another flat owner sublets and doesn't want any expense. I am happy to pay for a decent standard of service. The other "live in" leaseholder is in arrears and refuses to pay any service charges.

    The LL covenants to "at all times during the said term to take reasonable care to keep in good and substantial repair and in clean and proper order and condition those parts and appurtenances of the Building which are not included in this demise or in a demise of any part of the Building"

  • #2
    In a building like this I would expect cleaning to every two weeks, ideally weekly, though with conscientious and considerate residents ( and no adverse factors eg a nearby road or building site) monthly might be done.

    The question is the standard and cost not so much frequency. I'd ask often are you cleaning and what are your cleaners expected to do as it seems haphazard.

    Whatever they decide to do it certainly should not be adversely affecting your home it's amenity and value.

    As sad as it sounds, I'd take a day in the week as a benchmark and note changes with photos then and specific incidences. When the bills arrive at the end of the year you can compare what you you paid for with what you got.

    In a case where residents are not doing manual jobs at a work, an hour on the sofa might be better spent on the stairs with kit and a podcast, and save the money.
    Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks.

      With 5 of the 6 flats sublet I think it would be difficult/unfair to get occupants to clean. I know I could do with a bit more exercise but I'm self employed and I'd have to drive around there. I'd rather pay somebody to do it and use the time to earn enough to pay them.

      The LL is allowed to create new regulations in regard to the common parts. Is this something they could do in regard to cleaning?

      Is there not a 'health and safety' issue with them allowing/leaving occupants to clean?

      If things don't improve could I employ somebody who is insured to do it and pass on the cost or withhold the amount from service charge demands?

      Comment


      • #4
        I had a similar problem which turned out to be temporary due to the managing agents allowing financial problems to occur so there was no money for cleaners. My property came up to let and each time I had a viewing I hoovered all six flights of stairs. I got my tenant and the cleaning was sorted out at a later date.

        Comment


        • #5
          it was an idea, but fair enough. There are health and safety concerns but they are not insurmountable.

          Regulations over the common parts are unlikely to affect cleaning standards as they cannot contradict the lease terms themselves.
          Hopefully they are just about leaving prams and bikes out etc.

          You have to discuss it and agree improvements but cannot unilaterally act. You may find that hiring someone for an hour or doing it yourself is cheaper for the landlord and you overall and you contra against the service charge bill he sends you.

          After all clean common parts make flats easier to let.....
          Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

          Comment


          • #6
            Many thanks.

            One further question. Sorry!

            Can the LL use the excuse of one of the leaseholders being in arrears as grounds for not doing more cleaning? The LL is a limited company which was set up with no assets. It's not a 'Right To Manage' company, it's owned by a woman whose family owns 3 of the flats.

            Comment


            • #7
              No they are still obligated, if they have a cash flow issue then jolly well sue the tenant or seek possession under ground 8 or section 21. It is their problem and the risk of being a landlord.

              its an opportunity to say if you can agree a rate and standard, you can do it for the time being and sort it out in due course. They take the bait and you end up with a bill for SC and say here it is less my bills for cleaning from x to y.

              http://www.flat-living.co.uk/userfil...ng15-8-11-.pdf
              Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

              Comment


              • #8
                The "I cant do any works 'coz a certain leaseholder hasn't paid' exuse pops up quite a bit in LVT decisions, but the obligation to repair takes prescedent over this, some leases do say that works will only be done when/if money is received but there are various common/statute laws that would overide this anyway.

                My FH has for many years worked on the assumption that he could claim moneies off leaseholders in advance, its only in recent litigation involving myself and others where it is clear that the lease makes no such provisions and that he must do work, and recoup the cost later, no doubt not what he intended and its questionable if he actually read the leases when he first purchased the freehold.

                Of further annoyance is that my lease also obliges certain works but has no mechanism for recovery, which I thought was quite unique but did come across another similar one at LVt recently.

                Andy
                Advice given is based on my experience representing myself as a leaseholder both in the County Court and at Leasehold Valuation Tribunals.

                I do not accept any liability to you in relation to the advice given.

                It is always recommended you seek further advice from a solicitor or legal expert.

                Always read your lease first, it is the legally binding contract between leaseholder and freeholder.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by andydd View Post
                  The "I cant do any works 'coz a certain leaseholder hasn't paid' exuse pops up quite a bit in LVT decisions, but the obligation to repair takes prescedent over this, some leases do say that works will only be done when/if money is received but there are various common/statute laws that would overide this anyway.
                  In this case its slightly different as the leaseholder of the flat is the freeholder and his excuse is that he needs his rent to come in before he can pay.
                  Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
                    In this case its slightly different as the leaseholder of the flat is the freeholder and his excuse is that he needs his rent to come in before he can pay.
                    Sorry I haven't explained it properly!

                    3 of the 6 leases are owned by the director of the freehold company and family members. The freeholder does not own any of the leases. Does that make a difference?

                    The company that owns the freehold is not a RTM company nor one set up for collective enfranchisement. It was set up with negligable capital (one or two pounds for the issued shares). The shares are owned by the director.

                    There is one leaseholder in arrears for service charges (not part of the director's family). In fact the leaseholder has just been ordered by the County Court to pay the arrears monthly. From what I hear the freeholder is not going to get it on a voluntary basis.

                    Another excuse they may try and use is that they have insufficient funds because they have had to adjust the service charge account because of an LVT decision. Assuming the service charges are held on trust then the company's only income is £150 per year ground rent. It has no capital and expenditure has exceeded reasonable service charges by about £750.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      NO you explained it correctly , perhaps if I had put leaseholders in " " as in this case the FH is for practical purposes comparable to a leaseholder paying their share. Or not in this case.

                      While they may have arrears in the case of other flats, and rent arrears in their retained units ( their flats) and an LVT kicking that the pleasure of being a landlord.

                      Your honest payments are propping it up- I'd look to con them by doing the cleaning and racking up bills against their sc bill to you. That way you get nice common parts to come home to, you are only out of pocket some Mr Sheen and sweat, and not propping other people.
                      Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
                        In a building like this I would expect cleaning to every two weeks, ideally weekly, though with conscientious and considerate residents ( and no adverse factors eg a nearby road or building site) monthly might be done.

                        The question is the standard and cost not so much frequency. I'd ask often are you cleaning and what are your cleaners expected to do as it seems haphazard.

                        Whatever they decide to do it certainly should not be adversely affecting your home it's amenity and value.

                        As sad as it sounds, I'd take a day in the week as a benchmark and note changes with photos then and specific incidences. When the bills arrive at the end of the year you can compare what you you paid for with what you got.
                        Hi LHA, I have taken your advice and have been visiting the property more regularly, paying closer attention to the condition of the common parts and taking photo's and keeping a log.

                        The carpets were cleaned on 4th and now less than a week later the lobby carpet needs cleaning. People are obviously coming and going with muddy shoes and there are bits of leaves and small stones. The stairs aren't anywhere near as bad but I would imagine they will need cleaning within a week. I'm pretty sure the cleaning is being done monthly apart from when the LL is letting prospective tenants view their flats.

                        The LL has arranged a meeting with all leaseholders on 8th March "to discuss numerous issues" but I know exactly what the outcome will be. The majority of leaseholders will say they are happy with the way the property is being managed. This is because, of the 6 flats, 1 is not connected to the communal area and 3 of the others are owned by the LL and their family. They are all sublet and whenever they are looking for a new tenant they clean the carpets prior to a viewing.

                        How important is the view of leaseholders in regard to the standard of cleanliness? You say above that it is not a matter of frequency, more a matter of standard and cost. I don't understand why cost comes into it?

                        The LL has full control, it's not a RTM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hansa View Post
                          How important is the view of leaseholders in regard to the standard of cleanliness? You say above that it is not a matter of frequency, more a matter of standard and cost. I don't understand why cost comes into it?

                          .
                          Because MA has an obligation for costs to be reasonable,

                          If he spent an unreasonable amount of money and one of the tenants complained (and won) he wouldn't get his money back

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tim123456789 View Post
                            Because MA has an obligation for costs to be reasonable,

                            If he spent an unreasonable amount of money and one of the tenants complained (and won) he wouldn't get his money back
                            Thanks,

                            Are there any guidelines?

                            What relevance is there to the opinions of leaseholders? Is the LL right in asking? If 4 want to keep costs down and 2 want to increase the standard of cleaning what happens?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hansa, I feel your pain.

                              I often am frustrated with my fellow lessees who won't wipe their feet when I am trying to let a flat. The only solution I have found is to take my own hoover over every couple of days. Obviously, once the place is let, you can stop doing this.

                              Comment

                              Latest Activity

                              Collapse

                              • Conflicting lease placed over my lease
                                E1enquirer
                                Good evening all and thanks for reading.

                                I'd be keen to hear peoples thoughts on this one.

                                My BTL flat in London, E1 has a long lease and an accompanying land registry document that shows the terrace around the perimeter of my property is part of my demised premises. As with...
                                20-07-2017, 21:54 PM
                              • Reply to Conflicting lease placed over my lease
                                MrShed
                                When you say your terrace do you mean you physically have buildings on there or just land?

                                the land registry are unlikely to be interested, they have a "general boundaries rule" and actually the matter would be decided by the courts. Because of this, the status of the plan at...
                                20-07-2017, 22:03 PM
                              • Communal front garden issue
                                Pocahontas
                                Hello

                                I hope I'm posting in the right part of this forum. I need some some advice please.

                                I own the leasehold on my ground floor flat and the freeholder owns the flat upstairs and rents out to tenants.

                                New tenants moved in two weeks ago and since they have moved...
                                19-07-2017, 20:45 PM
                              • Reply to Communal front garden issue
                                Galatea
                                It is not exactly garden furniture what you got there. It can deteriotae in rain.
                                Speak to the planning department as well about the situation as they may have some rules on the front gardens,

                                Is the front garden demised to any owner? You need to check the other lease as well. Your...
                                20-07-2017, 21:00 PM
                              • .
                                firsttimermeg
                                ...................
                                20-07-2017, 19:54 PM
                              • Reply to first time buyer - Freeholder died
                                Gordon999
                                From other posts on arrears in ground rent, it seems the freeholder can only claim back 6 years.. You could ask the seller to pay the 6 years rent owed.

                                If the original lease started at 99 years , you may be facing a ground rent increase to double the current rent at 66 years....
                                20-07-2017, 20:26 PM
                              • Reply to first time buyer - Freeholder died
                                MrShed
                                I'm assuming as a first time buyer you are mortgaging - in which case, I think you have a more fundamental issue in that the lender is very unlikely to lend if you have less than 80 years on the lease...
                                20-07-2017, 19:59 PM
                              • Reply to Communal front garden issue
                                Tipper
                                I've always found that if you don't want something just put it outside and it magically disappears!

                                (And I don't mean the council has cleared it but the totters have!)

                                Why don't you put a sign up offering free furniture to the taker?
                                20-07-2017, 19:37 PM
                              • Freehold management accounts
                                pernes
                                Hi, we have just received the year ending financial accounts, albeit late and after the agm.

                                the managing agent took control from the beginning of our financial year, a year ago, I'm trying to work out from the accounts produced by the RTM board year ending 2015, what the year end figure...
                                19-07-2017, 12:54 PM
                              • Reply to Freehold management accounts
                                pernes
                                Thank you for the reply
                                20-07-2017, 17:11 PM
                              Working...
                              X