babysitting

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    #1

    babysitting

    Assuming I have been given written permission to sublet, is my tenant allowed to have guests and let them stay over? I can disallow her from having guests stay overnight as part of the AST but think it would be ridiculous to do so. She want's to have her daughter's baby stay occasionally and because I am being accused of being in breach of my lease for alleged behaviour of her son I am being very cautious.

    My lease says "not to assign underlet part with possession of or allow any other person to use or occupy part of the flat without the lessor's written consent not during the last seven years of the term to assign underlet or part with possession of the Flat as a whole without the Lessor's written consent (such consent not to be unreasonably witheld)"

    Some time after the son was no longer around I received a letter stating that I had allowed somebody else other than my tenant to use the flat. I have been provided with no evidence of this and my tenant has told me that her daughter visited on one occasion and also her sister on another occasion. They did not stay overnight.
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    #2
    Have a look at this thread, and see if you want to be the one allowing this problem to occur:

    http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...807#post379807
    To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

    Comment

      #3
      The nuisance that is alleged can result in a very short period of time and can have nothing to do with their length of stay. To extend Use as restricting overnight stay, or even a long visit, is ridiculous.

      But are you simply trying to start over, again, with your earlier thread to get the answer you desire?

      What happened to mediation?
      Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
        The nuisance that is alleged can result in a very short period of time and can have nothing to do with their length of stay. To extend Use as restricting overnight stay, or even a long visit, is ridiculous.
        Agreed, in regard to their reliance on the word "use". I just wasn't sure why the lease needs "use" "occupy" and "sublet". There is obviously something intended by it.


        But are you simply trying to start over, again, with your earlier thread to get the answer you desire?

        What happened to mediation?
        No, the mediation letter is the one that is sitting waiting to be collected by the LL.

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by JK0 View Post
          Have a look at this thread, and see if you want to be the one allowing this problem to occur:

          http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...807#post379807
          Yes, but you can't assume all kids are like that. Also, perfectly normal behaviour by kids can be pretty annoying. This is my tenants home, she has been there for about 14 months and the incident with "the son" was whilst she was not at the property for a few weeks and was over and done with by the time I had even been informed about it. I ask myself, if it was so bad, why did it take 3 weeks before I was informed. Also, why was I informed during the progress of an LVT hearing in regard to service charges?

          Comment

            #6
            So are you saying that this is an entirely different property?

            I recall that thread also mentioned the son being present for a time.

            Perhaps you can see my reason for the question as there are similarities, and, by all means, correct me.
            Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
              So are you saying that this is an entirely different property?

              I recall that thread also mentioned the son being present for a time.

              Perhaps you can see my reason for the question as there are similarities, and, by all means, correct me.
              No, it's the same flat as referred to in my earlier threads.

              I suggested mediation as recommended by you and they agreed providing I pay for mediation. The letter now in limbo is my agreement to pay for mediation, asking them for a date when they intend applying to the LVT to determine whether there is a breach and times prior to that date when they are unavailable for mediation.

              In the meantime I am being very careful not to technically breach the lease because my main argument against there actually not being a breach is that I could not be deemed to have allowed or suffered any of these alleged breaches because I was unaware of them. I believe I am in a much weaker position if a second unauthorised person is deemed to have 'used' or 'occupied' the flat and was concerned by how strictly the 'used' and 'occupied' terms are interpreted by the courts. I was considering asking my tenant to not babysit her grandson for the time being. As mentioned, the AST requires her to get written permission from me if anybody is to stay overnight in the flat. In normal circumstances I wouldn't even consider enforcing this.

              I think the LL has crossed the boundary of allowing peaceful occupation but am obviously gambling somewhat because I don't know the truth of the situation as I have not been provided with any evidence behind their allegations. I just know that I don't trust the LL and that they have good cause to hold a grudge after 2 LVT decisions went my way.

              Comment

                #8
                Which is why meditation is the best way to explore the issues and the amount of information you have in order to take action against the tenant, and crucially make it stick. Just because it is outside the original contract term does not mean that they will not resist it.

                Be careful over restricting the right to a family life that would override whatever clause you put in the tenancy. With reference to case law the likelihood that occasional visits by friends family or babysitting would be treated as use or occupation let alone one that is a breach. Long terms stays beyond a weekend or a week or two vacation however might be, especially if the tenant was absent.

                What is a breach is if any of them causes a nuisance.

                But this has been gone over at length before. Mediate or sue for harassment and breach of quiet enjoyment.

                The answer is not in the forum it turns on examination of the facts in one or more legal venue, and how the parties can agree a compromise, or how the law applies to those facts.
                Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
                  Which is why meditation is the best way to explore the issues and the amount of information you have in order to take action against the tenant, and crucially make it stick. Just because it is outside the original contract term does not mean that they will not resist it.

                  Be careful over restricting the right to a family life that would override whatever clause you put in the tenancy. With reference to case law the likelihood that occasional visits by friends family or babysitting would be treated as use or occupation let alone one that is a breach. Long terms stays beyond a weekend or a week or two vacation however might be, especially if the tenant was absent.

                  What is a breach is if any of them causes a nuisance.

                  But this has been gone over at length before. Mediate or sue for harassment and breach of quiet enjoyment.

                  The answer is not in the forum it turns on examination of the facts in one or more legal venue, and how the parties can agree a compromise, or how the law applies to those facts.
                  Thanks.

                  I'm not looking to go over old ground. I appreciate these types of matter cannot be fully dealt with in a forum, however if an issue is black and white but I have misjudged it as grey then you (or somebody else) will undoubtedly put me right.

                  Comment

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