Leaseholder & Landlord Proof of Delivery

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    Leaseholder & Landlord Proof of Delivery

    Over the years I've always worried about this when writing to my landlord. Royal Mail do not offer a proof of delivery service, just proof of postage and proof of signature. Proof that they've actually posted a letter through the door is generally what I want.

    I got totally fed up using the basic 'signed for' service. This used to be called recorded delivery. After having many letters go into limbo it transpired that a lot of postmen are too lazy to return the letters to the sorting office and post them without signature when nobody answers the door. So as a sender looking for proof of delivery you are in a worse position than if you had just sent the letter by normal post. You are actually being told by 'track and trace' that the letter has not been delivered.

    Special Delivery is better because those lazy postmen tend to return the letter to the sorting office and it eventually gets picked up or returned. I'm currently in this position. My LL appears to have gone away. A letter I sent special delivery has been taken back to the sorting office and has not been collected after several days. I've driven past my LL's house a few times and they seem to be away as their car is not there.

    Where do I stand legally? If it's returned to me do I have to start again? That's hugely frustrating if I do.

    My lease actually states that "any demand notice or other document required or authorised to be given by the Lessee shall be well and sufficiently given if left or sent through the post by registered or recorded delivery letter addressed to the Lessor at the last known address of the Lessor and any demand notice or other document sent by post shall be deemed to have been served twenty-four hours after such posting"

    The family I am dealing with are well versed in using the post as an excuse (I was messed around terribly in one court case, having to prepare for 3 hearings that were rearranged at the last minute or were they didn't turn up)

    What do people recommend here? It sounds so simple when you read the lease but I'm not sure that when you get to the court that they will believe me when I say I posted it myself through their door.

    #2
    I found a good tip here on Landlordzone was to post two letters by ordinary post from two different post offices, and to ask each for a certificate of posting.

    I do this for all correspondence now with my tenants that I need to be reliably received.
    To save them chiming in, JPKeates, Theartfullodger, Boletus, Mindthegap, Macromia, Holy Cow & Ted.E.Bear think the opposite of me on almost every subject.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by JK0 View Post
      I found a good tip here on Landlordzone was to post two letters by ordinary post from two different post offices, and to ask each for a certificate of posting.

      I do this for all correspondence now with my tenants that I need to be reliably received.
      Yes, I like that idea. Posting on 2 separate days would make it even more likely to arrive.

      I quite like the idea of hand delivering with video evidence to back it up. The trouble being proof of date/time. I've used photographs with the days paper in them before in regard to the state of the garden but this only really proves that it is some time after the date on the paper. Perhaps sit outside the property with a radio until the news comes on and then video that and you posting the letter?

      Comment


        #4
        I was messed about in court when my freeholder's solicitor claimed not to have recieved something, despite the fact that all documents I handed in personally as it's nearby, the Judge suggested also emailing too, which I now do..my freeholder doesnt appear to have an email address, so I fax too.

        Andy
        Advice given is based on my experience representing myself as a leaseholder both in the County Court and at Leasehold Valuation Tribunals.

        I do not accept any liability to you in relation to the advice given.

        It is always recommended you seek further advice from a solicitor or legal expert.

        Always read your lease first, it is the legally binding contract between leaseholder and freeholder.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by andydd View Post
          I was messed about in court when my freeholder's solicitor claimed not to have recieved something, despite the fact that all documents I handed in personally as it's nearby, the Judge suggested also emailing too, which I now do..my freeholder doesnt appear to have an email address, so I fax too.

          Andy

          Funny that. A Judge suggesting email. I can remember when it was fairly new in this country and courts refused to accept it as evidence. It shouldn't be really - you can easily forge it. Letters from my LL's solicitor actually state "service by fax or email not accepted" in the letterhead.

          Comment


            #6
            But if you drive by the landlord's house, surely you deliver it, with a witness, and make a statutory declaration?
            Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by leaseholdanswers View Post
              But if you drive by the landlord's house, surely you deliver it, with a witness, and make a statutory declaration?
              Hi, yes that was something else I considered, but then thought about them saying "but that's your wife" or "that person is a friend of yours". Also, then having to get them to come to a hearing to back up any witness statement.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by hansa View Post
                Hi, yes that was something else I considered, but then thought about them saying "but that's your wife" or "that person is a friend of yours". Also, then having to get them to come to a hearing to back up any witness statement.
                No, as posted, they and you make a statutory declaration. If you are truly paranoid about this employ an enquiry agent and have it served by a process server.
                Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by hansa View Post
                  Funny that. A Judge suggesting email. I can remember when it was fairly new in this country and courts refused to accept it as evidence. It shouldn't be really - you can easily forge it. Letters from my LL's solicitor actually state "service by fax or email not accepted" in the letterhead.
                  I believe there have been court cases (and perhaps even law) where its been discussed and accepted as a valid delivery method, if you wanted to get 'nerdy' you can actually follow the mail and show all the various ip address it passed through from your email address to recipient.

                  Putting service by fax or email not accepted would be rather strange especially as nearly all solicitors rely upon DX systems.
                  Advice given is based on my experience representing myself as a leaseholder both in the County Court and at Leasehold Valuation Tribunals.

                  I do not accept any liability to you in relation to the advice given.

                  It is always recommended you seek further advice from a solicitor or legal expert.

                  Always read your lease first, it is the legally binding contract between leaseholder and freeholder.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by andydd View Post

                    Putting service by fax or email not accepted would be rather strange especially as nearly all solicitors rely upon DX systems.
                    But DX is a physical means of posting and delivery, not electronic.

                    Anyone can agree to accept service by fax or email, but to avoid the cost and doubt of argument can expressly state that they will not accept service in this way.

                    The MOJ sets out the law in
                    http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rt06a#IDAYOXJC

                    http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...art06#IDAROHCC
                    Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by andydd View Post
                      I believe there have been court cases (and perhaps even law) where its been discussed and accepted as a valid delivery method, if you wanted to get 'nerdy' you can actually follow the mail and show all the various ip address it passed through from your email address to recipient.
                      Yes, but in terms of sending email, you wouldn't be able to show that the email had actually passed through those ip addresses. You don't actually have a copy of the email received by the recipient.

                      For received email 'evidence' you could print off an emails headers and claim that it was genuinely received but you could also very easily forge an email including headers. I doubt very much whether the lower courts or tribunals have any idea about this and from what I see there is no mechanism in small claims cases or LVT cases to investigate the authenticity of evidence.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        For the answer see above.
                        Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The landlord is required to give the tenant, his address for serving of legal notices and this address appears on every annual ground rent demand.

                          You can send any letter at a post office by "recorded delivery" to that address and the receipt for recorded delivery will be accepted by the County Court.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The problem with recorded delivery is that if they dont accept it then there's no service. This happens all the time with S.21 or S.8 claims. It has been taught the hard way that if you want to make sure then send two copies, one by regular post and one signed for. You cant do more than that, unless you physically put it in their hands and take a photo of them holding it.

                            Email is generally not considered good enough for service so use the post. Technology doesnt always win

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Ok I'll try again to eliminate the opinion and guesswork on service and emails with the MOJ protocols " rules" on service

                              The MOJ sets out the law in
                              http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rt06a#IDAYOXJC

                              http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...art06#IDAROHCC
                              Based on the information posted, I offer my thoughts.Any action you then take is your liability. While commending individual effort, there is no substitute for a thorough review of documents and facts by paid for professional advisers.

                              Comment

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